Donna Williams’ Blog

Last year I met with a strange woman determined to turn a passion for helping people into a consultancy. She is methodical to the max, made a plan and saw it through, knew how to ask for help and open minded to advice. Her determination is inspiring. Welcome to an interview with Aspie online consultant and life coach, Kerryn Burgoyne, one of the people listed on http://www.auties.org .

DONNA:

Hi Kerryn. Want to tell people how we met?

KERRYN:

Hi Donna, I first met you at the Ivanhoe Church Hall in Ivanhoe Victoria, when you were running a seminar on Autism. You were talking on Autism as a “Fruit Salad”.
Dividing your talk up into smaller sections, similar to the ingredients of a fruit salad, so it would help the audience to understand Autism in a simpler context.

I brought the 3rd and 4th biography books that you wrote and had for sale along with your art work and you signed all 4 books including the first two copies I had aptly named “Nobody Nowhere” and “Somebody Somewhere”.

DONNA:

Ah yes, I had completely forgotten that. I thought we met when you came to the autie-friendly dinner!

You had an idea at the time we met at the dinner, to run an online counselling service. But you describe it
differently. Tell us about KTalk.

KERRYN:

I originally wanted to be a life coach to counsel people about Asperger’s Syndrome but found that I didn’t have the qualifications necessary as it was going to cost a lot of money I didn’t have at the time to complete this. However, since I had a Cert IV in Training and Assessment, I decided to put it to good use, and decided to run a “training organisation” to help people understand Asperger’s Syndrome — the higher end of the Autism Spectrum in a simpler context. I also decided to develop courses that reflected my life and how I learnt to become a mature adult like I have now. I solely believe that these courses will help many people in many different areas of their lives, even those people who are non ASD clients to achieve their lifetime goals or dreams that often go astray or put on the backburner.

DONNA:

You’re diagnosed with Asperger’s but you had a pretty rocky road in early adulthood. Do you feel up to talking about some of the challenges you faced in school, puberty and early adulthood?

KERRYN:

At school it was tough; much teasing, bullying, harassment in High School, having woodwork or sheetmetal models destroyed, teachers not knowing how to handle kids, just going outside for a smoke (back in those days), my school bag destroyed, unable to grasp or learn what was being taught at the time.

DONNA:
Yeah, I had some bullying in primary, was pulled down from the monkey bars and kicked by Ms. Popularity, as happens, eh, but I was only 6 or 7 so I just figured that was part of having ‘friends’, ah, ignorance is bliss they say.
By 9 I was really wandering about like a homeless person (perhaps practice for later and at 12 I got encircled by pratts chanting zombie-zombie, which actually says a lot more for their desperate need for conformity than it does about me.
In high school I got into so many fights and my father solved this by wrapping my hands in tea towels and play-boxing until I hit back. I became good, too good, as the black eye of a boy in my class would testify and then I jabbed another in the back with a sharpened pencil – budding sociopathic tendencies perhaps but he was really ridiculing me for class entertainment and now he’s a leading Melbourne DJ, so maybe we both helped develop things in each other!
My next high school I got adopted by an older girl who must have liked mascots because I was a real wombat and recovering from an emotional breakdown so not with the program. Sadly I threw a chair at her which meant I lost school number two after only 2 weeks.
School 3 was good until boys got in on the bullying and after they got grabby, they really learned what being called psycho and disturbed since age 2 kind of allows one to live up to. Chairs flew, tables got rammed at people, and instead of being the victim of bullies, next thing I was egged into prize fighting by encircling enthusiasts who would have been quite at home in the Colloseum. School 4 I didn’t last long enough to get bullied and was excluded from so much pretty much nobody but the staff knew me.

KERRYN

In primary school, I had the following:

I was a very quick learner for reading, but had little comprehension.

Bullied at school, called names, found learning very difficult, with a one on one tutor, I accelerated my learning, particularly with maths.

Being constantly ill with grose allergic rhinitis, croup and ear, nose and throat problems. Made many visits to the hospital in this period of time.

Preferred playing with the prep children because they weren’t a threat to me.

I was always alone in the playground, with the exception sometimes of my sister. I couldn’t join in group play or games that were played with the entire class, or in the school ground, because I was very un-coordinated.

Was scared of using the playground equipment as I didn’t want to hurt myself, and saw the circumstances of people getting hurt, but was afraid of the unknown until recently.

Couldn’t cope with school camp (couldn’t understand what was happening around me).

I thought I was being sent away for being naughty, or not a proper member of the family as I didn’t know how too “mix in.” or I was feeling guilty because I always said inappropriate things, eg telling my doctor he had bad breath, much to my mother’s embarrassment. I couldn’t talk about my feelings or things that had happened to me, as it used to take my mum a week to pry things out of me bit by bit.

When I couldn’t cope with the world or things, I just slept for 24 hours at a time. Or for longer periods of time.

I always felt like I was on the outside looking in. Standing back watching in fascination at what people did or said to each other.

I didn’t know how to draw or paint. I didn’t understand what art was about. I have just learnt to draw in 2000 – 2001.

I didn’t know how to think about things using my imagination. I had no imagination at the time.

Didn’t know what information was or how to process it. My mind was always thought in movies or pictures, and this I didn’t recognise until after my diagnosis in 1998.

DONNA:

Actually that’s a stereotype perpetuated by Temple Grandin. In fact visual thinking is common to around 60% of the general population and not all people with ASD think visually either. Whilst many people with Asperger’s also think visually, and those with language processing issues, often more so, many with ASD who have visual perceptual disorders for example are forced to use other types of thinking like kinethetic (physical), musical and mathematical thinking styles even where their language processing doesn’t allow them to easily become verbal thinkers.

KERRYN:

Didn’t know how to play games with people. It was safer to play my own games, whatever they were.

Whenever anyone played with me, I had to accept what was given to me, I couldn’t say yes or no with regards to what happened as I didn’t understand. I couldn’t tell people that I didn’t like their rules nor I couldn’t tell people that I didn’t like the game and could we re-invent the game so that it suited everybody not just the person running it.

I always had to have the colour blue as I didn’t know or distinguish any other colours. I threw out everything blue I had and then I replaced all the clothes etc I lost with different colours and styles with what I chose and liked for myself and liked what I was doing in this process.

My sister created the activities on my behalf for both her and me. I didn’t understand how to do this, nor did I understand how to play games properly.

Preferred playing with the prep children because they weren’t a threat to me.

PUBERTY:

I was still a child figure inside until my diagnosis. I always acted this way, as I didn’t know how to act like a mature adult I am now. What was puberty and what did it have to do with me:- I didn’t understand what my body was doing and why it acted so strangely in developing into a woman, that I didn’t want to become.

EARLY ADULTHOOD:

For the last 20 or so years I was this child like person, but now I wanted change, but extremely terrified of what was to happen to me. I had to go through this process of becoming an adult woman and changing my inner being soul self with my body which had developed at the time. But I had to do it. With it came relief and guilt and thus the process started for me to do my journey. But why did it take so long? In the meantime I was trying to find a decent job (although managing a school crossing job, to which I found boring but it earned me extra money to survive on).

Then the diagnosis came and it all happened from there, to which I am so glad to this day that it has done.

DONNA:

Many people have the stereotype that people on the autism spectrum don’t have sex. Do you talk to adults on the spectrum about sexuality and relationships?
What is some of the range of advice you might give people?

KERRYN:-

Not really, this hasn’t been my thing for over 20 years. I have never had a proper relationship with the opposite sex, even though I have dreamt and longed for many years. A relationship will happen in time, and I can see this happening in the future for me.

Women on the Autism Spectrum should be on the Pill to prevent them from becoming pregnant. Men should always wear a condom. Sex can be safe if both people are willing to do so, and caution should be taken to find out if sexual diseases are present in either person. If not, then Oral Sex is the safest thing to do. Never sleep with more than one man, and always marry the love and soul mate of your life. Never cheat on each other, be open and honest with each other and remain loyal and loving to each other until you both die. Even those couples may never marry but are still able to conduct a relationship with the opposite sex.

DONNA:

Oh Kerryn, that is so Aspie-ly put. To clarify though, I think sex is a whole lot more complex. I’d say that not all women should take the pill because it can have risks, that condoms and fertility testing kits can also help people avoid unwanted pregnancy and that women can take charge of condoms too. I’d say Oral Sex is only safe if its what you want to do with the person you want to do it with. I think some people, including gay men, sleep with more than one partner and can still love and be loved but that everyone should be happy and healthy with that arrangement or stick to monogamous partners if that’s truly where you feel best on a range of levels. I’d say people are often so multifaceted there is often no one true love or soul mate for each person but that one can find at least one who fits that and choose to avoid affairs with others who come along if a strong, stable monogamous relationship is their best chance at a happy home and love life. We also don’t have to sleep with every person we fall madly for, especially if you’re an artist, because you can just paint or write about what ‘might have happened’ if…. ha ha And I also think that homosexual relationships can be just as happy as heterosexual ones and that straight, bi, homosexual aren’t terms set in concrete for all people.

Anyway, these are some of the other important issues I see in the autism world:

a)A vast number of adults on the spectrum don’t have ongoing paid employment. Hence some of us are taking this into our own hands and forming portfolios of self employment then finding ways to develop those ideas and market them.
b)How would you help people with work related skills and would there be times when you might advise them about forms of self employment?
c)What might someone do if they were looking to start self employment but had no money with which to start off their ideas?

KERRYN:

Answer to (a) Many people who have ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorders) are not understood in workplaces and in my own opinion, people are and get extremely busy with work. If training was initiated in the workplaces for employees to understand those with an ASD, then many Aspies or Auties would be employed and last in employment longer than people who didn’t have ASD’s. In fact many people without ASD, change jobs so many times in that of a person with ASD who can remain with a company for many years being loyal, honest and fair to their boss in their workplaces.

Answer to (B)

Work related skills can be implemented in their particular field of interest –for example computer programming, building, construction, and the employer could also train the person with ASD in a number of other work related skills relating to their field of employment.

Answer to c

A budget can be set for the person to start saving up for their “dream goal” of starting their own small business. My advice to a person is start at the very beginning, learning the basics through a NEIS course which can be done through a local TAFE. I am quite happy to give advice in this area should it be needed or in demand.

DONNA:

How do you feel about the idea that some people identify their selfhood with their
Asperger’s or autism?

KERRYN:

That is great that they can do this! Then they can look back to see how it affected both them and society earlier in their life and what they can do with it now. That’s where I can provide training through my courses to help people with ASD achieve these goals.

DONNA:
(a) How do you feel about your own Asperger’s?
(b) Do you feel you can be proud of having Asperger’s?
(c )What are the positives and negatives for you?

KERRYN:

In answer to (a), I didn’t like it at first and found it difficult to cope with, but once I accepted myself for having Asperger’s, then I found ways that I could live with it, and do stuff with it, I never thought possible before, as people told me that I could not live my life at all.

In answer to (b) yes I am proud of the fact that I have Asperger’s, because I can tell people about myself and help them to understand ASD or Asperger’s in far greater detail than if they have had information from a person who has just given them a little source of information.

©

Answer to C the positives and negatives:-

Negatives – some people don’t want to know about how ASD or Asperger’s affects a person as they are afraid of “being caught with someone with it”, “catching Asperger’s” like a fever, or only want to know who you are now as a person doing all the positive stuff you do in life. They are afraid or scared to admit they may have a problem that is affecting them in the past and seeing someone with Asperger’s Syndrome is even scarier to some people, and therefore, they don’t want to know anything about it. Nor do they want to deal with you the person who has it, or the syndrome itself.

Having such a short term memory is a pain in the behind. As I have to be told twice or three times what to do, or to remember something that has been said to me before or to be directed in a task in a workplace for example.

Being overloaded is the most negative thing with Asperger’s or ASD. Once this happens, the body can’t take anymore information in to be processed, the brain is heavy and headachy with information queued to be processed therefore the need to go to bed and sleep it off has to be done, similar to shutting down a computer for the night.

POSITIVES: Having a super long term memory of how to do things. Once you learn something, it is there forever, and you can apply that to anything you are doing in life. Knowing your limitations with Asperger’s or Autism is another great thing. So that you don’t get overloaded.

DONNA:

Some people with Asperger’s feel uncomfortable around those diagnosed with autism.
Where do you fit in with that?

KERRYN:

I used to feel like this, but as I am working now with Alpha Autism Inc, I am gradually meeting other people with ASD’s or Asperger’s. Treating them exactly like I would like to be treated and understanding their lives or dreams/goals that they want to get out of life. I want to help these kid of people as I am in exactly the same situation as them.

DONNA:

I have met with you and tried to pretty much, mirror you behaviourally, but in my own time and space, I wouldn’t jump through hoops like this, its just too hard work. But you know I’m autistic and you accept me. Why?

KERRYN:

Some people, Donna are slower at things than other people are, so me jumping through hoops meaning that I’ve accomplished a lot over time doesn’t mean that you won’t do so either. Look at the stuff you’ve accomplished like your artwork, your writing novels about your life, and now making movies about your books and your music. How much have you accomplished yourself in that amount of time, even before I was diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome in 1998? That is a lot of stuff you’ve done, even before I started out. I’m just starting out now in my 40’s.

I know you’re autistic because I’ve learnt that through your novels I’ve read. I accept you because you are just you, and you’re a fantastic person. You have also been a great friend of mine if I am allowed to call you that!

DONNA:
oh, blush. Sure, mate, anyone can call me a friend, though mostly I’m just friendly but a friend is someone who is there for you, sure, and I know you truly offered heartfully to be there for me in any way, but I’m autonomous and solitary to the bone so such things really don’t compute for me. I am just learning to feel cool with the word ‘help’… some of that is abuse too, there was a lot of abuse from people because I needed food, shelter, a wash, or just being existant, but that’s a whole other story. But all I’m saying is I really do appreciate the kind offers of people even if I turn most down

KERRYN:
You’ve done heaps for me, and kept in contact with me, as I needed advice from you for different things. But I appreciate you for who and what you are and I’m on the Autism Spectrum just like you. In a way I’m autistic too, so that makes 2 of us LOL! We all have to learn to accept people for who they are and what they are and if they don’t change it’s their problem not ours.

DONNA:

You are developing a game which sounded exciting.
Tell me about it.

KERRYN:

It’s not a game but a course to help people with Asperger’s Syndrome learn more about their disorder, and how they can cope with it. Modules of the course include Learning what Asperger’s is, how to deal with conflict, how does society accept these kinds of people and how to support people with AS. The person with AS will also learn independent living skills, to help them live a more “normal lifestyle”, and this includes learning how to pay bills and do household tasks.

The other two courses that I’ve wrote are The Goal, and The Power of Positivity to which are available for sale on my website. Aspektism as it is aptly named stands for Asperger’s Syndrome on the Autism Spectrum will be available around October/November this year in electronic format, together with powerpoint files and a leader’s book on my website, as with the other self help life course materials for sale there.

DONNA:

You’ve begun doing public speaking.

KERRYN

Yes I have.

DONNA:

All speakers on the autism spectrum specialise in different topics.
What are yours?

KERRYN:

Teaching and training people to learn more about Asperger’s Syndrome (the high end of the Autism Spectrum) and being an advocate for the disorder. Also the training courses that I will run.

DONNA:

Where can people hear you?
KERRYN:

This is difficult to say at present, however, when I get going with my business, people can look up my website and see the different locations/venues that I will be speaking at the time and they can contact me to make a booking.

In the meantime, it will be word of mouth, and using different marketing companies to get my business name up the top of the search engines for the meta tags of “Ktalk and Kerryn B, and Kerryn Burgoyne. I will also print out my brochure to leave in different locations around Melbourne and some local companies I have dealt with, have always agreed on displaying my brochures in different spots in their stores. This is a cheap and easy way of marketing a business.

DONNA:

How might they book you?

KERRYN:

They are able to click on the “shop” link or go to my “contact us” page and are able to make bookings via my shopping cart through my website. A general enquiry form is also available on the Contact Us page. My website will be updated later this year to take more bookings and payments for goods and services allocated to the service the public.

DONNA:

You have some support with your ideas and mentors.
How important are they, who are they and how does this mentoring work?

KERRYN:

They are extremely important to me. Who are they? One of which is Tracel Deveraux who is the CEO of Alpha Autism who has been such an inspiration in giving me advice for my business and information about other areas of personal development such as a leadership course for myself, and program development for people with Asperger’s Syndrome or ASD’s.

I admire Tracel for the leadership skills she shows in running the entire organisation of Alpha Autism. Her valuable leadership skills that she shows, is how I’m taking on board to learn for running of my own business. I admire her that she gives encouragement, enthusiasm, & positive feedback to her staff so they are able to achieve or accomplish goals in their jobs. Although everyone is busy lately, and it seems that Alpha Autism is changing direction in many ways, (I have noticed in my own opinion), I admire how the staff support and help each other out like a family.

Although I’m not a valued staff member as such, I appreciate the fact and way I can assist Tracel and her staff in many ways through utilising and developing my admin skills to assist in other areas of the organisation, such as Fundraising for Alpha Autism. But I also appreciate the fact that I’m involved in so many ways and will remember my work experiences at Alpha Autism for a long time to come.

DONNA:

If people want to know more about your KTalk service where can they find out more and how can they contact you.

KERRYN:

They can just go to http://www.ktalk.com.au and look up my website, or Google/Yahoo Ktalk in Australia. They can also contact me via email on the Contact Us Page via my website or call me on +61 3 0409 077 777 to call me for further information

DONNA:

Anything you’d like to add?

KERRYN:

No that’s it for the time being.

DONNA:

Thanks for the interview.

KERRYN:

Thanks you so much Donna for this, I very much appreciate your kindness and help in this interview and it’s been interesting to talk to you about this.

BYE!

DONNA:

Bye.

Donna Williams *)

author, artist, composer, screenwriter

http://www.donnawilliams.net

http://www.auties.org