I grew up with someone who likely fitted psychopathy, Narcissistic (NPD), Borderline (BPD) and Sadistic personality disorders who was also an alcoholic. So whilst each of these disorders contributed to my developing Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), and I do not have BPD, I’ve been traumatized by the idealisation/demonisation extremes of my abuser’s BPD within this mix. Added to this my autism means much of me is quite solitary by nature and boundaries really matter in my world. I don’t like ‘wildfire’ sudden friendships, I’m nervous when someone says they’re ‘JUST like me’, nervous of those who idealize me, nervous of being too important to anyone’s world or identity. As such I’d like to challenge my phobia.

I know there are folk on here with BPD. I know most with BPD also have tendencies toward dissociative disorders (as do those with Schizotypal PD, those with autism, those with DID). I know those with BPD generally struggle with boundaries, have a weak sense of their own identity (I have DID but my alters are not roles and the identity of my Core Self is intact), have compulsions to self harm/suicide, tend to fixate/entangle/pursue those they idealize, then equally cut them down. I’d like to hear your stories, how you live with BPD, your feelings about yourself, about others and the world. Did you get treatment for BPD?

I’ve always been distressed by the BPD cutters and their constant suicidal turmoil. As someone with DID I’ve experienced lots of struggles with passive suicide issues, but I could never really empathize with what went on for those with BPD…… I wanted to shake them out of it, make them wake up, love themselves, work on it, get on with it… their indulgence in their depth of their emotionality felt weighty, imposing, pursuing, attention seeking… but I watched this clip and it gives me empathy for them. I hope we can help humanise these people so they can come to humanise themselves.

Kat Kim Stork-Brett
I had a friend with BPD and I always felt completely unacknowledged in our relationship. My role seemed to be to edify her and validate her existence and she had a quenchless thirst for both. I always left her presence feeling like I’d been swallowed up in a faceless black hole. The more I gave, the more she took and I just never got anything in return, even if I distanced myself. Funnily enough, if you really listen to Madonna’s lyrics, it’s not that far from the truth of being entangled with someone with BPD. 😉

Cat Taylor
yes she put that song into my head as well. 🙂 It’s not easy to define yourself when others are trying to force you into their ideals. sometimes their ideals are the stuff of nightmares.

Teresa Backhouse
My mother was diagnosed with Borderline Personality disorder a few years ago…..I can completely identify with the “giving all you’ve got”, and I’ve felt like a sponge who’s been totally wrung out on a number of occasions……My father was an alcoholic, and I was told by a psychologist that people with BPD often are married to alcoholics…..(Whether they become alcoholics because of their partner’s BPD, or were beforehand, she couldn’t explain)……..

Devlyn Rhys Young
yes, my parents and both sets of grandparents dealt with serious mental health issues…and i can’t say for sure which one triggered the MPD response although they all contributed to its remaining active. i was in relationship with someone who was/is BPD and we did well when interacting using alters, living in imaginary or shamanic realms – however that looks like to others. what toasted the relationship was trying to live in the real world, having a job, keeping house, interacting with others in the mundane everyday world. cruel doesn’t even touch it… but the other extreme kept me staying longer than was healthy.

Chelsea Reinschmidt
I don’t have BPD but when I was a teenager because no one understood my autism the docs thought I had it. It was interesting because when they assumed I had it and didn’t attribute my behavior to my autism I got treated like absolute shit a…nd then when they figured out I had autism suddenly I was treated like a human being again! Ironically, I am very much like you describe Donna, leery of anything “sudden” with people, too much drama or anyone trying to make me the center of their world or getting too clingy. I am a solitary individual at heart. It seems to me in my experience that at one point within the teenage girl cohort almost every girl who didn’t bow down to the holy psychiatrist, and chose to think for themselves got labeled BPD!

Donna Williams
In my 47 years my team have made friends with at least 3 people who completely fitted BPD and acquaintances with a few more. In each case the social claustrophobia, neediness, monopoly of all my attention, attempts to isolate me from all others, co-opting of my own identity as theirs and sudden extreme demonisations of me when I attempted boundaries all meant I had to exit. Nor was it easy. I found they did not easily nor gracefully take no or goodbye as acceptable answers. Still, if one wants fans, those with BPD can swoon like nobody can swoon. If you like to be admired and idealised, someone with BPD can appear to be the person you’ve been waiting for. I have sympathy for those with BPD, they really don’t want to be in their predicament.

Chelsea Reinschmidt
Agreed. They truly don’t want to be in their predicament. I have a few friends with it and I can maintain these friendships from a distance. I also believe that these people have the label but not necessarily the full disorder. Plus I am VERY good and clear with my boundaries and am not easily swayed by anyone. So people with BPD traits often like me because deep down they NEED and want people to set boundaries with them.

Donna Williams
I think that’s great advice Chelsea, that those with good, clear, strong boundaries who can set limits, stick to them and give people with BPD 3 warnings then the boot if they can’t self manage and stick to the boundaries… that way those with BPD can get good modeling of good boundaries and real friendship without exhausting/burning out/destroying the very person they are drawn to. And I think discussion of BPD is important for adults on the autism spectrum… because many are so eager for friendship, so open, without good boundaries themselves, or pleasers, that if they meet someone with BPD the aspie/autie is a walk in but may lack all the skills to get out or get things into some HEALTHY balance with someone as persistently imbalancing as a Borderline can be.

Chelsea Reinschmidt
Exactly. Honestly, I have never had to stop being friends with any of them. They are able to stick to boundaries if they are clear enough and everyone knows what to expect which by the way is also a need of mine. I don’t do well with unexpected things that’s one of the difficulties with my autism. So it works out well. I think the main thing that I have learned is that I take care of myself first period. So regardless of what anyone else is trying to do to get my attn or however they are trying to get a hold of me I simply don’t talk to people if I don’t want to. When I feel more social then I will talk to people then. I am very consistent so I think most people with BPD don’t feel threatened by me. Even if I seem distant to them for a while I always reemerge when it is a good time for me. The friends I have with BPD labels and traits sometimes have difficulty with me being more distant but when they see me taking care of myself and when I encourage them to try the same it usually strengthens the relationship. Also, I don’t take anything personally so regardless of what they may say to me it doesn’t really affect me too much. I don’t let them abuse me but I am more tolerant I think of some of the behaviors while they are still learning than most people. That helps.

Donna Williams
I think the key is if you are a pleaser or at all co-dependent, then be very careful getting entangled with those with BPD. I think also with those with BPD, if they are going to self injure or attempt suicide, I can’t be around that… they gotta do that on shrink time, pay someone to be there for that… I will not be an emotional dishrag/audience for that stuff… I have a real heart, a compassionate, empathic one… I can’t afford to exhaust it, let it be monopolized, enslaved to someone who is in love with pain and self hatred, is a leaky bucket addicted to other people plugging it up endlessly… I make it clear (with help from Marnie, Willie, Da), I hold no hands, wipe no bums, take no passengers.

Olivia Connolly
Had a flatmate who I’m sure had BPD and the trespassing of boundaries was a huge theme. She took over my freindships and then alienated me from them all the while clinging desperately to me. She went as far as trying to hook up with my ex boyfriend, she found out where he worked and got a job there. She would come home and tell me what he’d done and said that day to taunt me. She was manipulative but only to keep the people around her close. I too feel sorry for borderlines as they are like wounded children desperately afraid of abandonment. I think they can respond well to therapy unlike narcissists who don’t believe they have any problem at all.

Donna Williams
wow, that’s like that film Single White Female… yikes… guess there’s plenty of films about Borderlines… none of them pretty… Fatal Attraction, The Hand That Rocks The Cradle, White Oleander, Girl Interrupted, What Lies Beneath…Any positive film depictions of BPD?

Chelsea Reinschmidt
Not that I can think of. Honestly, this is a big part of the problem with BPD, you take a person who is already struggling label them with such a derogatory dx and of course they will act nuts! Seems to me it is a self fulfilling prophecy…

Donna Williams
And also how does BPD change the conditions it co-occurs with…. for example I’ve known Aspies with Borderline, I’ve had contact with those with DID who have autism but not BPD, those with DID who have BPD, those with DID who have neither… and the presence of BPD in autism or DID seems very much to flavor it. I guess same with substance abuse… someone with BPD and substance abuse would be a whole other picture to someone without the BPD complication… or depression… add BPD and you’d have a far more complex treatment to tackle the depression than if it occurred without the BPD.

Chelsea Reinschmidt
It definitely is not a construct that is very reliable or valid for that matter. The criteria are so subjective and culturally sensitive and 5 of the 9 criteria make it a variable spectrum of issues with one label.

Donna Williams
Ah… a fruit salad of its own! And I certainly think it would be hard to tell a few things apart… like a thyroid disorder might make someone appear fairly emotionally erratic and more BPD… and then there’s the myth that all people with BPD have been abused as children so when someone has been abused badly or develops PTSD or DID, especially if female, there’s plenty of trigger-happy label shooters who can quickly presume BPD even if half the criteria are missing. And hypo-mania together with social anxiety disorder could also be mistaken for BPD.

Chelsea Reinschmidt
Almost everyone with BPD has some other co-morbid just like people with Autism. They are both complex developmental disorders when it comes down to it so they are going to intersect with so many other dx.

Donna Williams
Technically, BPD is a personality disorder and autism a developmental disorder, just as DID is a dissociative disorder, OCD a compulsive disorder, GAD an anxiety disorder, bipolar a mood disorder… but I agree, its kind of like fruit salad, with ice cream and sprinkles… people will commonly have combos.

Chelsea Reinschmidt
The other thing is cultures tend to cultivate certain behaviors that could be mistaken for BPD more than others. Jewish folk tend to get labeled with BPD more frequently than some of the Anglo cultures. This is also true of Hispanic folk. A…nd of course women (especially queer women and trans folk)
are labeled with it much more frequently

Donna Williams
wow, that is wild, I didn’t know that… that’s really sad and clearly there’s bigotry and ignorance at work.

Chelsea Reinschmidt
Personality disorders are developmental in nature even if they are labeled as personality disorders. Most people I have known with them have serious developmental issues like LDs. I do not think it is possible to separate out developmental disorders from personality disorders. I realize the DSM has not caught up to this idea but I think that is only because they have stigmatized Axis II so much.

Olivia Connolly
Girl Interrupted depicts a girl with a borderline personality. It was perhaps a more balanced representation of the disorder and she is a sympathetic character in that we feel for her in her struggle. The promiscuity was there and vulnerability, but not manipulation of people so much. She was more solitary than clingy with those around her. I agree that it takes 2 to tango in a friendship with a borderline disorder. If someone is too clingy and manipulative then perhaps you are allowing this. This was my lesson about passive behavior. She is no longer in my life and whilst I’m relieved I hope she has found a healthy way to relate to people.

Donna Williams
Having grown up with an abuser who I feel fitted psychopathy, NPD, BPD and Sadistic personality disorders I can definitely say those things can and do occur in people who have no LD or developmental disabilities to excuse themselves with in any way. Saying that, it is also a fact that those with developmental disabilities experience such chronic stress their personality traits may be more likely to present in personality disorder proportions.

Cat Taylor
I can’t imagine not being able to feel empathy.. that trait alone makes people more vulnerable as it’s assumes others have moral limits when they may not.

Rebecca Lili Roper
I don’t believe in borderline personality disorder, I think its traumatic stress disorder

Liezl Wienand
BPD most frequently “develops” as result of traumatic exposures, usually prolonged in nature. high cortisol levels associated with continuous stress “erodes” frontal lobes (especially orbital frontal areas), and manifestations of same usually maketh the Borderline, poor attachment etc etc naturally doesn’t help!

Donna Williams
Hi Lili, I think this is because PTSD is one reason many people’s personality traits blow out into disorder proportions. For example someone with the sensitive trait will have greater risk of developing AvPD, if they have also endured severe chronic stress, including the complication of PTSD. Same would apply where someone with the Mercurial trait developed BPD. So its not that BPD is PTSD, but severe chronic stress would be a linchpin for most cases of personality disorders. Saying that, things like inbreeding can also exacerbate personality traits as can a double whammy with two parents who already have disorder proportions of a given trait. So, for example, two parents who are extremely achievement driven conscientious perfectionists will already tend toward OCPD and be more likely to have a child who gets a double whammy and starts out with OCPD. PTSD can effect any human being and that not all human beings have a predisposition to BPD, even if they have a parent with it. For example, one can be severely abused by a parent with BPD yet if they didn’t… inherit that predisposition, the damage of that abuse will manifest in other ways including DID without BPD, or DID with other personality disorders (ie Schizoid, Avoidant, Schizotypal etc…). So think of it this way, cars break down, each model has its own tendencies to certain weaknesses, but their are certain faults that occur more commonly in the breakdown of different models of cars.

Anna Godess
I haven’t seen any positive comments yet! I have a diagnosis of Bipolar which I truly believe fits my behavior over the course of my life. I have also been told by different shrinks that i have “aspects of Aspergers” or alternatively “possible BPD”. I don’t believe i have aspergers even though i have two children on the spectrum. I know a lot about ASD and it doesn’t ring true for myself. I am beginning to feel that shrinks just throw labels around.

Donna Williams
I guess, re personality disorders and positivity, can’t say there’s likely to be overwhelming positivity about many personality disorders because many of them, in the extreme, lead to high levels of harm, either to self, or others, emotiona…lly, mentally, physically… so take NPD (Narcissistic) or Sadistic Personality Disorder, or Antisocial Personality Disorder… they’re all fairly needy, greedy, aggressive in how they play out… or take AvPD (Avoidant) or DPD (Dependent)… the carers of these people are drained, tired, riddled with guilt and responsibility for constantly carrying these people who chronically indulge in avoidance or inability…. or Passive Aggressive personality disorder where ‘its always someone else’s fault’ or Depressive Personality disorder where the person constantly whines and bags all positivity or options… that can be emotionally draining, imprisoning to the person who is involved with someone with it who refuses to take charge of their treatment so they can overcome their PDs… even OCPD, which Aspies tend to celebrate to the max… only a few people with OCPD end up with exceptional, high paid secure jobs based on their fixation… others self isolate and fixate 24-7 on an interest that may never give them independence etc and leave it up to disability benefits or carers to go to work, pay the bills etc, because they couldn’t dream of doing something that doesn’t interest them…. so PDs tend to be problematic.

Paula Jessop
No, I’m not afraid of Borderlines. One of my areas of intellectual interest in the psychology realm has been personality disorders, as I was diagnosed with Borderline, ten years before my diagnosis of Aspergers, ADHD and bipolar. Thus, I studied up on it (like many aspies, I tend to study the things i’m diagnosed with)…but it was a diagnosis which was overturned in favor of bipolar…with some PTSD thrown in….which at a couple of points in life has produced similar behaviors due to mania + stress.
Thus, I retained an interest in borderline…also because my time as a psych in patient meant I met a few who were diagnosed…and over the years I’m rather sure a few other people I’ve known were borderlines. Those who i met inside psych hospital tended to be have severe borderline and had very extreme self harm tendancies etc. I don’t fear them…I feel for them.

Yes, they are hard to be around…but I also find unmedicated schizophrenics hard to be around at times…and bipolar people when they are manic…and dysfunctional NT’s…and alcoholics/drug addicts difficult to be around etc etc. I feel for them…because the distress and experiences they have are real. I have also met some people with ‘mild’ borderline, are on a whole, I found them not to difficult to be around…as pointed out above, one has to be clear and direct about boundaries…and aware of the things their disorder leads them to do etc. Which I find similar to being friends with any person who suffers a mental illness…if I choose to be friends with a schizophrenic, I need to understand how this effects them. If I choose to be friends with a bi-polar person, I need to understand how this effects them.

I think that people with borderline are judged very harshly at times…and sadly, in New Zealand, they are judged harshly by those in the mental health system and are often refused treatment. Yet, there are new theories emerging that borderline is a chemical/biological illness in the same way that bi-polar is, new therapies which by all accounts so far have a great impact on helping those with borderline gain stability, wellness and a stable identity and new knowledge about medications which can also help them. Hence, I am disappointed more people with borderline are not able to get the holistic assistance needed…as surely they have the right to have the choice to recover from their mental illness too?? From what I’ve seen from those I’ve known, when a person who suffers borderline is able to gain stability, they can be wonderful interesting people…just like anyone else with mental ill health.

I have been frightened by one person who had borderline I met…but this person was also histrionic and had alcohol/drug addictions…thus, the alcohol and drugs tended to push the borderline behaviours into extreme unpredictability…and the histrionic tended to bring out extreme manipulation. But on a whole, I don’t tend to find those with borderline scary…I find them hard work if they are extreme, unstable and dysfunctional and therefore may not choose to be friends with them…but have also found a couple of people who were diagnosed with borderline who were able to manage all it brings and to be fun, decent, caring and kind people.

Donna Williams
I think we may find in the future that BPD is a fruit salad… that there’ll be BPD which stands alone, and BPD which is complicated by things like mood disorders, anxiety disorders, dissociative disorders, even som…etimes with Histrionic, Narcissistic or Antisocial PDs with much of this other stuff resulting in the extreme stuff all getting called the ‘BPD’ just because it is occurring in someone with the basic foundation…. similarly, someone with autism who has Tourette’s, OCD, GAD, bipolar/depression, dissociative disorders, agnosias, aphasia, and any collection of co-occurring PDs will present as more severely or problematically autistic than those who merely have an ‘information processing difference’.

Chelsea Reinschmidt
PDs inherently must be ego syntonic by definition and BPD is definitely ego dystonic so I don’t personally think it is a PD at all. That is of course my stance on the issue. The other ones, well I can’t speak for those but it certainly seems that a LOT of autistic people meet the criteria for AvPD or Schizoid PD and that seems odd to me. Definitely raises questions in my mind.

Donna Williams
I certainly don’t think those with BPD find it egodystonic. They may cut and attempt suicide and feel addicted to pain and self hatred but they do feel it as THEIR pain. For example, OCD and Tourette’s are egodystonic. I’ve dealt with OC…D and tics. As they’re going on, sometimes I have ignored them like farting… it just happens, its not personal expression, not ‘me’…. other times as the OCD or tics are going on I’m thinking, this is not me, why is this crap taking over…. that’s what egodystonic is like… so having a PD which results in addictive over indulgence in emotionality and close up fixation on one’s own pain is not necessarily egodystonic… those with AvPD often feel imprisoned by their self imposed isolation but they do experience it as ‘self’. Though interestingly, may depend on each borderline and how non-self they find their own PD! Here’s a quote:

“The ego’s job is to determine the best course of action based on information from the ID, reality, and the Super Ego (SE). When the ego is comfortable with it’s conclusions and behaviors, (in denial in these sort of cases), one is said to be ego-syntonic. For example, an individual with borderline personality disorder (BPD) that is in denial, could be an ego-syntonic BPD. However, if the person with BPD were bothered by some of their behaviors, they would be an ego-dystonic BPD.”

Chelsea Reinschmidt
I have yet to meet anyone with BPD who is not bothered by their behavior. In fact, their levels of distress far surpass most non personality disordered people. They may exist but in my experience this is not what I have seen with the disorder which leads me to believe that it is a complex PTSD syndrome. I know there are several theorists who agree with me such as Judith Herman, but obviously it is highly controversial as we have experienced even on this discussion thread.

Debra Steinbaugh
The greatest trauma I have experienced in my life was caused by someone with BPD. The person went away afterward as if they had satisfied some need to seek,enjoy,and destroy. I am only one on a long list of victims. The point being that the… people associated with people with BPD can at times experience some high levels of distress also and end up with some severe emotional issues. Is this a way that the person with BPD normalizes or equalizes their own distress? I realize that there is a need in some to sabotage a good relationship for fear of being rejected but this seemed different and self-serving. I hope it doesn’t sound as though I have no empathy for the person with BPD. I truly do and I understand that it as a mental illness, most often, too complicated for the patient to work through even with the best of care.

Liezl Wienand
i dont agree with the notion of BPD being a complex PTSD syndrome. not all diagnosed BPD’s have PTSD symptomatology, and not all sufferers of PTSD have BPD. I have encountered many BPD’s with no history of trauma exposure, no overt anxiety symptoms, yet poorly functioning in terms of their adaptive skills due to their BPD traits. sure, a great many BPD’s have had traumatic life exposures/experiences, but other factors can and do prime for development of BPD, as with all Axis II Personality Disorders.

Donna Williams, BA Hons, Dip Ed.
Author, artist, singer-songwriter, screenwriter.
Autism consultant and public speaker.

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