Do Autistic People Lie?
It’s a (disproven) stereotype that those with autism can’t lie. Some Auties and Aspies CAN and DO lie and have talked openly about how and why they did or were compelled to. Others can’t or don’t. But what defines the difference? What decides who can and does, who can and doesn’t, who can’t but would if they could, who can’t but even if they could wouldn’t?
One of the things about being functionally non verbal until I was 9-11 was that I never had to lie! I couldn’t be understood anyway. And how does one lie using a Palmolive Dishwashing Liquid commercial or the theme from Gilligan’s Island when that and a bunch of idiosyncratic words nobody understands is what you have as speech. Never really thought about that before, but I have virtually never lied. I had to think really hard how to do it twice in order to save my life. It involved having to know the truth and then imagine an opposite and say that! Although Exposure Anxiety made me commonly spout diversion responses and say yes when I meant no and vice versa, I really struggle with mental reversing… even ‘not’ statements are a struggle… I often have to get people to convert them before I can answer. So I reckon lying is a cognitive-linguistic skill as well as linked to motivation which equates with personality traits, identifications etc.
One probably needs
a) enough intact receptive and expressive speech (typed or spoken)
b) the cognition to internally juggle two scenarious (truth and lie) without losing track of one or the other) and
c) personality traits that make it easier to lie – ie lying would come more naturally with those at risk of narcissistic, antisocial, histrionic, borderline personality disorders than, say Schizoid personality disorder… but could still be driven by OCPD if one desperately enough wanted to continue something they felt an excuse would help, or in AvPD if one were scared enough of change or socialising.
So pretty much, any HUMAN BEING can lie if they have the motivation to do so.
Money is another motivation, material advantage. So any destitute person who suddenly struck it lucky could easily be targeted as a potential liar and a classist society that likes poor people to be objects of charity from above reinforces this idea that ‘they must have ripped someone off to get that’. But what’s really in this classism is a projection that ‘all poor people would want what advantages I have and would do ANYTHING to get those’. This is the classist equivalent of the racist cliche that ‘all black men want to rape white women’ captured so well in To Kill A Mockingbird.
Do all destitute people really lust, above all else, for money? I’m sure some do. But fact is, beyond needing enough to eat, clothe warmly and pay for a rented roof over one’s head, some don’t give two hoots about money. How many poor people are happy enough with sausages, mash, mince, rice and chips? Do they really all lust after lobster, prawn cocktails and avocado salad? How many poor people wish for a king size bed, chandeliers, holidays in Paris? Or are many just content with a nice warm duvet/doona, an electric oil radiator, some upturned milk crates for chairs, clothes from the charity shops, day old bread from the bakery and a holiday down the beach sleeping in the station wagon? Affluent middle class who project money lust onto those who had been destitute are ignorant classist bigots who either have no idea whatsoever of life on ‘the other side’ or THEY were the kind who DID have such overwhelming money lust they would lie to get whatever advantages they could.
It is so easy to lie, to project lying onto someone else to benefit from the flagwave of victimhood, or even rally and incite enough hatred to make one’s own presumptions appear facts by virtue of one’s number of sycophants willing to further one’s own dirty work. But in my opinion, however harmful lies and liars may be, its not the liars who worry me so much its the covert bigots who slather up to those lies because something in their speaks to their own self righteous bigotry.
Donna Williams, BA Hons, Dip Ed.
Author, artist, singer-songwriter, screenwriter.
Autism consultant and public speaker.
http://www.donnawilliams.net
I acknowledge Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people as the Traditional Owners of this country throughout Australia, and their connection to land and community.
The idea that Aspie/Autie people ‘can’t’ lie seems to be another one of those stereotypes or myths which continues to float around.
Some Aspie/Auties are able to lie, some do lie… some try to but are not very good at it… some can’t… some don’t bother trying. It’s certainly another of those issues where a ‘Aspies/Auties do or don’t’ answer is inadequate.
I’m one of those who sometimes does… usually white lies for reasons of self protection… although usually what I feel to be a lie is more leaving out information or telling not telling the complete truth. On a whole I tend to be so honest and open I’m sometimes frightened to be around people due to the embarassment I cause myself from being completely open and honest… so I’ve learned to leave out information or tell white lies about certain details in certain contexts… which I actually think is sensible sometimes!
It’s a subjective thing I think… but I certainly have met those who on the spectrum who seriously stretch the truth or are potentially out right making things up… but so what, AS people are PEOPLE and some people lie for all sorts of reasons.
Lying to get attention or sympathy and rally up others to provide the sympathy/attention… well certainly there seem some in the world who do this… in person and online. It’s a scary really… to me anyway, because I often can not tell.
A recent example I had in my role as a AS peer support person was a man and his friend who were convinced he was an adult on the spectrum. He’d been in jail for a violent crime and they were seeking a diagnosis to use as a ‘defense’ of some of his current behaviour which his probation didn’t aprove of. Me, as always, I took the information they provided as ‘true’ and didn’t question it too much… but something in me must have doubted as I requested they get a full assessment from a highly qualified AS psychologist here I know. Well, she came back with a professional opinion that he was definitely NOT on the spectrum… which because she’s able to read body language etc she picked up because she could see that he was completely able to read other people etc… something I couldn’t tell because I can not read non verbal ques.
It was a frightening experience for me, because why were they basically ‘lying’ to get a AS diagnosis… it seems to me they were seeking this diagnosis to as an excuse to criminal behaviour… and in the process, ‘using’ a AS peer support person and AS lawyer in the process. And certainly they were sucking up our hyperempathy.
I think this can happen online in AS groups also… there are those who come into our AS online communities looking for sympathy, compassion etc.
Hi Paula, yes, the use of AS to cover up for psychopathy, antisocial/narcissistic/borderline personality disorders, conduct disorder, alcoholism, even pedophilia just drives me bonkers. Co-morbids, PDs, addictions, can exaccerbate a presentation of ASD but can occur independently of ASD and vice versa. Plus just because one has ASD and co-morbids doesn’t mean one excuses away the other.
Indeed.
Although, I’d imagine there are those who are not deliberately or consciously using AS also to cover up other co-morbids.
Those that are deliberately or consiously… yeah, hmm, guess that’s life, the world is full of people who are not nice people! Sadly!
Ms Donna, I too have autism. I was dignosed at age 16 but was not aware of how big of an issue my affiction was until 22 years later. Anyways since accidentaly finding out why I struggled so much through-out my life, I did read your book Nobody Nowhere. At first I could not see how everything fit together but the truth about how and why I learn differantly finally made sense. I recently wrote a book to help me sort out things in my life in an attempt to put order and understanding towards who I am. I suppose that sounds a little strange but I spent a lot of years going backwards , forwards and perhaps upsidedown trying to make peace within myself. Now at age 49 I have finally reach that goal. Thank you for being you. Ms. Susie
Ms. Donna, I would like to think that you yourself would perhaps be interested in viewing my book for possible related experiences, in which we together could begin a common ground of comfort, and maybe even start a friendly relationship. I am very new to the computer world { two months to be specific} however I am willing to try because finding another person who thinks and responds much like I do is in my belief worth the effort. My book is entitled Two Worlds One Mind. Published by XLIBRIS. I am looking forward to your response. P.S. I certianly understand if you can not connect due to your very busy schedule, along with lifes little issues. again thank you for your time. Ms Susie
Hi Suzie, all the best with your book. Feel free to join my FB page and let people there know about your book. Warmly, Donna
Thank you for responding so quickly to my comments. As far as Face Book is concerned –well many folks in my network of friends {those that kinda look out for me} strongly suggested that I do not join that web-site. I realize this decision is mine to make, still at this time I will pass . Perhaps only until I become better familiar with my computer. I very much want to explore new things but get nervous when I take in to much to quick. I do want to share this thought with you, many of my friends are in the education field and well they too have enjoyed your book very much. I shared with them that I have been trying to connect with you because they know how much I connected to your life experiences. Thanks agian Susie
Ms Donna, I know in my personal life, I struggled with making eye contact. I mean we are talking totally not looking at a person when speaking or looking at people when spoken to. I eventually worked on this problem because I was looking for a job. A friend pointed out that in order to be taken seriously I had to make eye contact. At first I hated this whole idea but knew he was right. I started to practice in front of a mirror { the same concept used to learn how to smile} . I knew that looking into someones eyes {even my own } created way too much anxiety so I had to figure out another way to acheive this. I study myself for a long time , then realized that the answer was in the television set. What I mean was that while watching the T.V. what was it that I was looking at when people were talking. The answer: noses. Yes noses, if I looked at a persons nose I did not have to look at their eyes. To me this was close enough to the eyes as I could go. Now I also added a smile and perhaps a liittle giggle and well their you are a recipe for the first step in preparing for a job interview. Of course this the quick version of how I did it but I wanted to share and also wondered if you yourself struggle with the eye contact issue and if you did what helped you.. Ms Susie
When I was younger I saw faces and bodies piece by piece and was faceblind and meaning deaf so there was really no eye contact to avoid… eye contact with what? As I got older my avoidance, diversion, retaliation responses associated with Exposure Anxiety got more entrenched so I wasn’t typically AvPD/shy, nor purely asocial/Schizoid in terms of eye contact (avoidant/indifferent), I tended to swing between avoidance, staring through, tuning out and glaring.
Well Donna , you did much better than I did, you at least looked at peoples faces even if it was staring through , tuning out or as you said glaring. I just could not bring myself to look at people heads or faces. Unless of course there was a big hat on it. Agian thanks for sharing. I wondered too if your experiences regarding meaning deaf was simply at matter of needing a visiual picture or something else. In my book I wrote about how words that sound the same but mean to entirely differant things, example son / sun, pane / pain ect. You see every time some one would mention the word sun I always thought they were refering to the sun in the sky. Another big one that drove me to a point of high anxiety was when my sister would call me a pain. I always thought she was calling me a window and thought she was the one who was differant ,certainly not the other way around. I was in my adult life before I changed my thinking on that. Words words words what a big problem for me . I had to have a visual or connecting with others was not even close. And that of course was just one in many areas to work on so I could move forward. Even if I didn’t want to. Did you ever have that experience. Susie
the problem with my meaning deafness was not at all to do with visual thinking… in fact 65% of the GENERAL population are primarily visual thinkers. My problem with meaning deafness was due to growing up seeing everything in BITS… cat’s legs, lost body, got body, lost head, got ears, lost, head… so NO PICTURES happened, just fragments… I learned to think in MOVEMENTS and PHYSICAL FORM – kinesthetically. So my meaning deafness was linked to my meaning blindness… which best fits Simultagnosia. I wrote about this in books like Like Colour To The Blind, Autism; An Inside Out Approach and The Jumbled Jigsaw. Yes, people with lesser degrees of meaning deafness can be literal. But if I’d been called a pain I’d have repeated the word to myself having no idea what it referred to, thinking perhaps it was a name or role they had assigned me – ok, you are a….. pain…. an xtoplyx… a ropludsa… all the same. So the word cat didn’t mean anything, but I had a word for pattable thing which was ‘foosh’.
Foosh, that’s kinda cute. I did like to pat things myself but only a few things. My bankie {or blanket as it is called} was the single must important thing in my life way back in the days of very intense times. I still have it today, it might be in pieces but I still have it and pat it, especially if my stesses are high on that day. My husband calls it a rag, I call it my bankie. Anyways moving along. I wanted to ask if you struggled with touch. I know myself that even today I get very much stiff as a board if someone tries to touch me, actually let me refrase. Most people that try to get close and touch me makes me jump into automatically stiffing out like a board. I never understood until recent times {the last ten years} why people wanted to do that, especially that mush mush stuff, you know that kissing thing, and on the lips ,YUCK! So I suppose folks will wonder why I’m married. That is another story for another day. If folks really want to know they can get my book. I know in my career children come up to me and touch me and pat my shoulder or pull on my shirt to get my attention and most of the time I am not annoyed by this because it is part of my job duties and I have learned to some degree how to not obsess about it , the children are just in need of my assistance and thats ok. I did like to put things in my mouth to tasted them more so than touch or pat but again not that mush mush kissing thing. So Donna did you struggle or do you struggle with touch at all? Susie
Ah, clearly you have not read Everyday Heaven http://www.donnawilliams.net/everydayheaven.0.html
thank you for your direction in reading your book {Everyday Heaven} I am looking forward to reading it as I believe that it will be a good fit, especially since I just wanted to connect to another adult who has the same challenges as I do. Most folks I know in my life just don’t truely understand all the areas I have been struggling with in my life, but I thought that since I got a computer it would be nice to connect with a woman {yourself} who would understand some of my journeys. Anyways I also wanted to know if you know of some on-line web-page that may exist to help folks who may just like a little extra support with their everyday issues. You know the kinda of thing that lets us know we a going in the right direction. Again thanks so very much for your time and guidence. From a strong supporter and admirer. Thank you Ms Susie
Hi Susie, unfortunately many of the online forums if not most are pretty much magnets for people who indulge in cyberstalking, flaming or the sychopants who can’t tell friendship from seeking to impress each other and the flamer their ‘supporting’ so an Aspie could easily presume this to be ‘normal’ and find themselves in online kicking sessions. I’ve heard from so many running away from these forums that I can’t recommend them. You are welcome to join my Facebook page, I take no crap on there… anyone bullies anyone, anyone tries flaming, behaves like a troll or cyberstalker and they are booted out immediately. I have an online consultancy service you are welcome to use, its affordable but it does cost. Otherwise I’d recommend you find yourself a face to face counselor you can trust in your area. All the best, Donna.
Ms Donna, I ordered your book Everyday Heaven from my local book store, I should be recieving it in the mail with-in a week and a half. Again I am looking forward to reading it, in the mean-time I have a friend who is already on a facebook page and she has contacted your facebook page awaiting someones response to her comment as to whether or not she may join that page. The thought behind my librarian friend wanting to chat with someone there is that she has a child who is in the spectrum and wishes to ask or share some questions or experiences with others. I am so nervous with this whole computer thing that, I am wanting to wait and see how her comfort is on your facebook page. My friend has read my comments to you on this blog and feels I did o.k. with questions and comments to you. I was so worried that I made you mad or stepped on your toes or made you feel uncomfortable. She and a few others in the education field know that I cannot always tell if I have said the wrong thing. They [my friends} help me to determine if I have, my friends also work with many children on the spectrum and have asked me about some of my journeys. I am very greatful to have people who respect who I am and trust my word. As I said in my earlier comment to you I want to relate to an adult who has had similar experiences and struggles so I just have to reach a comfortable place on the computer before I move on to your facebook page. I as always thank you for your time and sharing with me. Ms Susie
Suzie, you are fine. healthy people are not cyberstalkers, flamers, trolls nor being sycophants to those who are (by joining in with an incited online kicking session). You are right to be cautious about FB or forums, but as long as you know what this nasty stuff is, you can recognise it for what it is and walk away – no matter what. warmly, Donna
Ms. Donna, The book you referred me to,” Everyday Heaven” arrived in my mail on Saturday. I have read the first 50+ pages and connected so much already. I just can not wait until I have finished so that I can share with my friends how much your book reads like mine. What I mean is the very co-dependant journeys that I shared with readers in my book are so very much like yours. Plus I very much like the parts where-as you are routine just like me. There are of course some differances but I just can not believe how we operate much the same way. I am looking forward to letting my friends read your book as well, then sharing the common parts between yours and mine. Further more my friend I was telling you about earlier in my entries to you has now joined your facebook page. She showed me the other day how it works, and I am impressed. When I finish your book I will be better able to make a decision about joining that as well. I just wanted to share with you. I also would like to talk more about your stories as time goes on. I’m so excited I can bearly stand it. Take care and thanks for listening. Ms. Susie
hi Susie, your exuberance is very lovely… its great to be excited about one’s life, new discoveries, abilities. Thank you for sharing.
Ms. Donna, I finished your book this morning “Everyday Heaven” . I can honestly say WOW!!! I could relate to so, so many things that you wrote about. The journey with “Shelly” was much like my journey with my first husband [maybe even my present one in our early years together]. I could relate to the brain overloads of arguing with myself and to the anxiety created by others or situtations you call Exposure Anxiety. I was for along period of time given numerous medications for these problems including RISPERIDONE. I too had multiple labels of disorders and was sometimes wondering if anyone really knew what to do for me. I too could not sit still, I always felt I had RED ants in my pants [the red ants bite]. I wondered could I ever just be settled down within my own body. Sometimes I thought that the doctors I went to see for help were experimenting with medications until they found the right combination. I felt some of my problems were link to nothing more than a slow mental growing up process. I know there was probably more underlining issues going on but none the less I had quite a time in my life so very much like yours. I know from listening to my parents as a child that they felt some of my behavior issues were brought on by corn products. It was their belief [mostly my mothers] that any corn products or foods with corn in it caused depression. My mom unknown to my dad decided to take almost all foods out of my daily diet. She did not let me have breakfast or lunch and I could only have a small portion at supper-time. Anyways I did not write about that in my book because–well my dad was already not happy about me writing about my issues to the world. Now back to your book, as I said I could relate so, so very much and now feel as if there is some-one else in the world who gets me—even if others do not. I have as I said before a network of people who are available if I need guidence or support in my daily life but it’s not the same as when one finds one who understands, like I do with you. It’s kinda like finding one who has the same interest except in this situation someone who traveled some of the same roads in life experiencing the same feelings, dead-ends, curves, hills, turns, bumps, holes, or in others words the same challenges. Again THANK YOU for being you and for bringing a smile to my face. Looks like I will be joining your facebook page soon so that I can feel a part of a bigger family of folks who are looking for that just right connection of fellowship. Take Care of yourself. Ms Susie