How would you know your child was BORN autistic? How could you be sure your autistic child was not born autistic? How old was your child when you saw the first signs that your child was autistic?

Victoria Goins
at 15 months there was regression from 20 functional words to none, loss of receptive speech, and a loss of all eye contact

Donna Williams
And Victoria, did they explore Disintegrative disorder? Did they explore gut/immune/metabolic disorders and whether they at all correlated with the age of onset? For example I met a boy who became ‘autistic’ after going onto fruit juices …daily at 12 mths. He was salicylate intolerant. He came off them at age 3, was still developmentally delayed but became significantly less autistic… and if nobody had picked that up he’d have not made those advances because his disorder was essentially a metabolic one (salicylate intolerance is often due to a detox malfunction… salicylate is a natural plant toxin, around 60% of kids with autism are salicylate intolerant – Waring, B’ham University)

Nanette Denise Bañuelos
Birth…mine was born autistic!! I didn’t know it at the time but during the diagnosis process and all the questions, I realized that he’s always been this way. No dramatic change. no speech delay or regression, just no speech…EVER!!

Donna Williams
and of course Nanette, there’s the question… was he born with speech aphasia… in which case, sure he’d not have had speech and lost it. And one can have speech aphasia and other issues forming an autism fruit salad… but speech aphasia without augmented communication, coupled with depression, compounded by DPD and subsequent avoidance of development opportunities… well that would developmentally AMOUNT to what we’d view as autism….but does that mean he was BORN autistic?

If the mother also had undx’d gut/immune/metabolic disorders. And if an unborn child inherited salicylate intolerance and the mother was doing high salicylates (natural plant toxins) the toxicity impact wouldn’t be too much different to that of a child carried by someone doing other types of toxins.

There’s also adults with neurological integration issues (dyspraxia) and the child inherits this from both sides… I’ve parents, each with different neurointegration issues, neither dx’d on the spectrum, and of course the child inherited these from each… a double whammy so to speak.There’s also prem babies who have a far higher incidence of PDD, and autism is higher among those with PDD so those born with both would be thought to be ‘born autistic’ but are we really saying ‘born prem with associated neurodevelopmental issues and associated progressively more autistic responses’?

If we’re going to get INVESTED in the idea ALL kids with autism are BORN that way… what do we mean by THAT WAY – epileptic? aphasic? dyspraxic? with agnosias? …. etc

Victoria Goins
We have to define what autism even really is: since it’s been found that many MANY neurological and physiological issues mimic autism but aren’t really autism.

Donna Williams
if we keep finding things that mimic autism and AREN’T then if we find enough of them sooner or later we have names for all the things that mimic autism AND all the names for the things that combine to present collectively as autism… and if we even distinguish personality disorders in children from their ‘autism’ and then those kids stop seeming or even being so autistic then what happened to the autism? See, once upon a time we had PSYCHOTIC children… I was diagnosed as one, aged TWO YEARS OLD in 1965. Now we look past this label to what we actually MEAN and the same kids dx’d as psychotic in the 60s are now the ones dx’d as autistic since the 90s… so could it be…. that we are the idiots of the future… that in fact these TIC TIC TIC labels are UMBRELLA TERMS for fruit salads the pieces of which we may not have individually identified but as we do the condition appears to reduce.

Nanette Denise Bañuelos
There are other things too. Doctor’s said he had colic because they couldn’t figure out why he was so miserable. Didn’t want to be held ever. He hated the car…would make himself pass out as early as one month old…turn blue and go unc…onscious for up to 3 minutes whenever i put him in the car. Mind you, I didn’t realize what was happening because I knew nothing of autism but as doctors asked THE questions, I answered yes to almost everything. once he was diagnosed at 20 months…I realized he has overwhelming sensory issues that were so complicated to him as a baby that his poor little body couldn’t takle it and he made himself pass out as a coping mechanism. I learned so much about him from your books, Donna. The way you described how things feel and sound and seem to you gave me great insight into what Robert feels. I always try to see things the way he does and I always assume he doesn’t interpret things for what they are…and try to break things down and explain them or model them in the simplest form.

Donna Williams
Nanette, we know colic is a digestive disorder, commonly associated with food intolerance, particularly cows milk. Disoriented, distressed children do things like breath holding until they pass out. Cow’s milk intolerance effects me like LSD, major sensory disorientation. And if one has that from 6mths, how does one gain neurological integration, sensory integration, receptive language etc…. Salicylate issues can also be at work. I’m gluten, casein AND salicylate intolerant. Just being GF/CF would mean I’d have increased my salicylate levels, so without covering that base those in my group can easily get a confused picture.

Victoria Goins
Unfortunately with my boy there were no signs for us: no colic, no sensory issues, no muscle tone or digestive issues of any kind.

Donna Williams
Hi Victoria, which means your son, who may have fitted speech aphasia, did not seem to fit gut, immune, metabolic disorders nor hypotonia, nor dyspraxia and associated neurological integration disorders and associated sensory issues…. so you can see that whilst you and Nanette both have children dx’d with autism, they may in fact have EXTREMELY different fruit salads.

And then, if we wanted to be really surreal we could boxing gloves on both you and Nanette, send you into the YouTube arena and you could create viral hate videos proving your child’s autism was the REAL autism 😉

Victoria Goins
When we first got started our pediatrician told us to look into ‘The Autism Diet’ and that’s where we learned about not only GFCF, but also a low phenol/salicylate diet and the Feingold diet. We did ALL of it at first (a very limited diet to say the least) and then added back in one thing at a time. He is still on the Feingold and gfcf diet, but we didn’t need the specific carbohydrate diet. That diet seems to be more for epileptic kiddos.

Donna Williams
Hi Victoria, I’m also off sugar because my IgA deficiency means I have no defence against Candida.

Victoria Goins
yes, my son has that too. But he seems to tolerate some of the higher salicylate foods if he consumed in moderation. But NEVER apples! Head banging central!!

Carla Campbell
Donna I feel paschal was a typical child until we noticed at his 1st b’day party?? We always play around and say we picked the wrong cake!! Lol it was literally an overnight change, stopped talking, reduced food, and no interest in anything only his beloved Shrek, we’ve watched it every day since then at least once.

Donna Williams
You know Carla, I have encountered this in around half a dozen cases, STRAIGHT after the 1st birthday party… and you know, each of those the child had AvPD… so was a highly shy child who had been subjected suddenly to being the centre of attention, photos, cake and candles, etc etc… it was almost like the child was traumatised by the event… no joking… I could hardly believe the stories… but there were the photos… and the child did suddenly appear to have become ‘autistic’ within a week of the party. Now Selective Mutism is common in AvPD, so are progressive Generalised Anxiety Disorder, Social Phobia and with it of course avoidance of eye contact etc… if a child of 12 mths continues to sink into depression that means regression and pulling away rather than reaching for new abilities, hence developmental delay… would this have happened to a different temperament – probably not, not at all… but someone predisposed to both AvPD and Schizoid personality disorders (the extreme of the sensitive and solitary traits) well, who knows… I can say that the same kids when they went onto L-Glutamine (works as an antidepressant/anti anxiety supplement and ‘smart drug) improved! Go figure.

Guess its another case of your child being a different ‘autistic’ to the others, no more REAL or NON REAL than any case of autism. WHY? Because autism IS a fruit salad and your child had enough fruit salad going on there to ultimately amount to developmental delay and all its neurological and sensory and perceptual and communication and emotional-social consequences we PRESENTLY call ‘autism’.

Tammy M House
My son was born with it as well. I noticed signs of Autism @ 3months old.

Louisa Martin
All my kids are on the spectrum with number 3 I knew at 6 weeks

Allison Dix
That’s a really great question Donna 🙂 My boys showed signs from birth as did Kristie.

Marie Davis
I think as some have said already, there is a distinction between autism and autistic symptoms. If a child stops stimming when you cut out apples it doesn’t mean apples cause autism, it means apples cause a reaction which causes stimming. So I’m not sure “symptoms” are necessarily the only way to recognize autism and therefore difficult for everyone to answer if their child was autistic from birth.

Victoria Goins
There has to be some distinction between simply having symptoms that mimic autism and having autism. What that distinction is, I just don’t know. Of course, but I guess what I’m trying to say is that if you change a child’s diet and the autism magically goes away, then was it really autism?

Donna Williams
Ok, Marie, Victoria, how’s this…. a condition called ‘sore foot’… it has a DSM… people with it do x, and y, and z…. these are the symptoms of the condition called ‘sore foot’… so can we distinguish the symptoms from the condition? i…f we find reasons for each symptom and manage each symptom… and find one symptom is gout, another is broken toe, another is corns, another is embedded glass, another is due to identifying as a person with a sore foot! etc… do we still have the condition called ‘sore foot’?

To compare, if you treat the child’s depression and associated Selective Mutism, GAD, and developmental delay and their autism goes away, was that really autism? If you get augmented communication for your child with speech aphasia or tints for your child with Simultagnosia, or use gestural signing and representational objects for your child with Verbal Agnosia is no longer feeling so meaning deaf and isolated, or if you treat the imbalanced brain chemistry of your child’s Tourettes, OCD, anxiety disorders, mood disorder and THEIR autism all appears to go away were any of THEM ‘really’ autistic…. well, yes… they were, they all were, equally…. because autism was the COMBINED result of their now reduced levels of fruit salad. But… can you help a child overcome OCPD, do they outgrow inherited Social Emotional Agnosia or faceblindness, do those with neurological anomalies develop usual brains – no, they don’t. So if THEY appear autistic as a result of these things, then they will develop and adapt, achieve, but they will be equally and just as autistic as any other person diagnosed with the condition… because they shared one thing – they all performed on the tests as ‘autistic’, they all fitted an early history of autism, they all showed the related developmental impacts and behaviours, they fitted the DSM. It’s a mystery 😉

Christianne Palmer
At a year old he became ill with eczema herpeticum which was treated fairly aggressively. Before that lots of antibiotics and a gut infection. After a slowing of development with loss of speech sounds and early words. So for example at 12 months he would say qua qua qua if he saw a duck and sssss for a snake. He said sssss again last year after 10 years of being unable to – still can’t say qua. Played peekaboo at correct stage and all those sorts of social activities are intact – very sociable and affectionate. Understanding of language is still limited. There were also gut problems which developed with the regression along with food restriction (severe for about 5 years). That is now largely sorted. I seem to spend my life shouting at the tv ‘there’s more than one autism’. The media treats it as one thing and it drives me mad. He did have low IgA but no health/gut issues for years. Our youngest had the same sorts of health issues but we were wiser/more experienced by then and we managed to protect his development.

Tammy Messner
My boys were both newborns when I first saw signs. Though, at the time, I had no idea I was looking at someone more complicated than just simply being a genius. :o)

Donna Williams
As for whether if a child with gut/immune/metabolic disorders becomes less autistic or even barely autistic as to whether this was ‘real autism’, what about the kids I’ve met who naturally outgrew their autism by age 5! These kids appeared to have nothing more than immature immune systems which appeared to have then matured and they then caught up with nothing left but some minor signs of once upon a time PDD… so should we just keep booting these folks off the spectrum so we preserve the stereotype that the only REAL autistics are the one’s who don’t change?

Maria Panza
For me personally Fragile X is a real genetic autism as it is discovered through DNA analysis and you have medical/scientific evidence. You have the proof of the autism from your blood just like identifying what your blood type is.

As a carrier of Fragile X I have gluten and casein intolerance (discovered through blood tests also) which gave me an explanation behind my sinus trouble, sleep disturbance, headaches and all the rest that comes with food intolerance.

There’s nothing to dispute for me and my daughter if you like as it’s defined in our DNA it’s just part of who we are. Just like some people are blond or redheads Fragile X – Autism is part of our genetic make up. It’s a shock at first but I’ve accepted it now hey nobodys perfect but I am OK with who I am. What you see is what you get 🙂 x

Donna Williams
Hi Maria. Even Fragile X is a fruit salad. It is associated with a higher incidence of immune dysfunction and also with Tourette’s and epilepsy. So Fragile X is not ONE condition… so what is inherited is the predisposition to a collection of issues which will play out as developmental disability with autistic presentation.

AND there are genetically inherited primary immune deficiencies which don’t show themselves until after 6 mths of age which are also commonly associated with PDD and with autism.
a few seconds ago · And there are genetically inherited anomalies of the Corpus Collosum which underpin Dyspraxia which can present more ‘autistically’ in some personalities than others (such as with AvPD, OCPD). And there are genetic predispositions to anxiety and depression in which a child may be more likely to pick these up particularly if the mother is having post natal depression… and if under 18-24 months and unchanged the child will then experience developmental impacts from such conditions. And some agnosias are inherited (others due to brain injury) and visual, verbal and body agnosias will present autistically in young children (meaning deafness, meaning blindness, face blindness, Social Emotional Agnosia, body disconnectedness). And those born to inbred parents and grandparents (my grandmother is from 2 gens of 1st cousin marriages) will have genetic weaknesses commonly leading to neurological and immunological issues (including agnosias, health disorders etc) which may present in combinations that play out ‘autistically’. And food allergies, food intolerances, metabolic disorders, immune deficiencies, even predisposition to gut disorders can be genetic! I have a 30% rate of Coeliac on my paternal grandmother’s side, an extremely high rate of Ulcerative Colitis on my mothers side, an extremely high cancer rate on her side (including bowel cancer) and a father who died of bowel, pancreas, liver cancer… so we could even say that just because these don’t immediately appear at birth, that they may very well still be just as genetic. So if these play out in a way that results in developmental disabilities including autism, whether that is at 12mths, 18mths, 24mths, we could claim these as just as genetic as any other ROAD TO AUTISM.

So if we throw out ALL of these cases because none of them are PURE (I can hear Hitler now) then what we end up with is a 4 in 10,000 rate of PURE autistics… and even then I bet those are just those we haven’t worked out the fruit salad of.

So then…. we’d have to admit that the only one type of autism is actually the one that is a FUNDING label. And of course we can’t do that because people would be out of jobs, the psychologists would be sacked, multidisciplinary teams would work with autism fruit salads, we’d have to create a funding system based on degrees of disability not on umbrella terms like ‘autism’ and essentially simply folk who can’t understand fruit salads would be lost without their tidy worship of DSM as God 😉

Marie Davis
There do seem to be some things that do mimic autism, mercury poisoning for example will cause autistic symptoms. My friend Tamara once broke both arms and sat there rocking back and forth unable to speak. Was she showing autistic like symptoms? Yes. Was she autistic? No, she was in shock due to the pain. Some children due to other diseases, mental illnesses, or environmental factors will display autistic symptoms which will disappear when the factors are removed.

However with autistic children, their symptoms may improve when a toxin or allergen is removed, but the autism – usually in the form of Aspergers syndrome – always remains. Autistic children move up and down the spectrum but are never “cured.”

Donna Williams
Hi Marie, in the 40s Phenylketonuria caused autism. They found a cure for it… a life long diet free of Phenylalanine (living on formula) for those who couldn’t process it and a urine test at birth to test for it. Those who go off the di…et do develop cognitive impairment and regress back into being autistic, yet today we call them Phenylketonurics… but we have similar with those who are salicylate intolerant then become less autistic when the levels of this plant toxin are lowered… will we one day call those Salicylaturics? See just because we discover the cause of autism in ONE group doesn’t mean THAT group was ‘never really autistic’ because ultimately we’ll find the issues for EACH group and then we’ll be left with 4 in 10,000 who will still claim to be the REAL, the PURE autistics… until we bust that one too… so lets stop being so precious and competitive… it if walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, then it probably IS a duck.

Cat Taylor
well going by that logic I could argue that only severely autistics have “real” autism. I don’t because I understand that it is a SPECTRUM disorder. just because someone may have “genetic” autism does not invalidate other forms of autism because it is defined by symptoms NOT causes.

Christianne Palmer
Hi Donna he was GF/goats milk only/low salic for a long time- this seemed to be the combination that worked best. Now he seems ok with a small amount of anything – but I think this reflects his healed gut. He will eat bags of red apples at a time so we have to be careful to try and limit those or it gets too much.

Donna Williams
Christianne, the golden and red delicious apples are low in salicylate, especially if peeled. The other types are moderate levels ie 3 times the high level… the really high stuff… 18 times the high level incl stone fruits, berries, grapes, almonds, honey, yeast extract and concentrated fruit juices and ketchup and chillies etc… of course also asprin.

Maria ‘Ria’ Strong
Re “genetic autism”, most people on the spectrum have relatives also on the spectrum, and identical twin concordance super-high (something like 90%). Question is, what are people inheriting? In some families, perhaps immune/metabolic problems. Dyspraxia runs in mine (me, bro and nephew all have it; nephew also got sensory and possibly food sensitivities from my SIL). etc. All the “autism genes” identified so far (quite a lot) are *risk genes* – ie occur more frequently in people with spectrum diagnosis than people who don’t, having them doesn’t mean you’ll be autistic and not having them doesn’t mean you won’t. And there is interesting research like this: http://www.nature.com/neurosci/neuropod/index-2006-10-11.html (see left side of page). Genetically, autism = fruit salad too.

Paul Isaacs
With me because my speech was delayed and when I finally did acquire some form of speech it was the word “Nan” which I said repeatedly with no meaning by the time I was at playschool there where clear problems interestingly enough its my Mum who saw there was something different about me when I was very young.

Maria ‘Ria’ Strong
According to papers I found cleaning up my mother’s house, something up with me more or less since birth. Got labeled “hyperactive” and put on phenobarb at 12 months, at 2 my mother told I was “not a normal child” in other ways. When I sta…rted having seizures and related speech problems written off as more “bizarre behavior” – only after *that* I got psychotic/childhood schizophrenia label (admittedly, story a bit more complicated). Donna, that was 1980 – childhood schizophrenia still probably diagnosed nearly as often as autism then. Now thought extremely rare, to the point where even *one* child with diagnosis can be a news story eg http://is.gd/kC4dg (Jani Schofield, 7) or http://is.gd/kC4Yt (Rebecca Stancil, 9).

Donna Williams, BA Hons, Dip Ed.
Author, artist, singer-songwriter, screenwriter.
Autism consultant and public speaker.

http://www.myspace.com/nobodynowherethefilm
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