Geraldine Robertson is a teacher, an autistic teacher, and she teaches autistic children whilst her presence also teaches their non-autistic classmates about the ability in disABILITY. She’s a humble, moving, self honest human being, a public speaker with a growing public profile and a wonderful dream. She’s one of the wonderful people diagnosed on the autism spectrum listed on http://www.auties.org and she’s available for further employment. Here’s our interview:

DONNA:
Hey Geraldine.
As I recall you, like me, are a qualified teacher.
And you’re also on the autism spectrum.
That would surprise a lot of people.
So tell me a bit about your diagnosis and about becoming a teacher and how the two fitted together?

GERALDINE:
I had wanted to be a teacher when I left school but after visiting the university campus, I realized that I could not cope, so I had years of doing whatever job I could get and generally for about 3 months before leaving.

DONNA:
Sounds familiar to me. I had 30 jobs in 3 years. Then I thought education would solve this. Out of my 4 year honors degree I lasted only 2 weeks in my first professional job and then progressively back on the scrap heap. My most successful job before being an author was being a rubbish scrounger where I’d go through the rubbish skips during hard rubbish street collections, take stuff home, clean it, tidy it up, categorise it then take it to market and sell it along with a fellow scrounger. I did this for over a year, a real success for me and so needed at the time. Even today, whilst I’m an accomplished author, artist, singer-songwriter, I’d struggle to hold even a kitchen hand or cleaning job because my autism means I tumble written, verbal even visual instructions, but my strengths include rote learning and kinesthetic/physical patterning.

GERALDINE:
I had occasional jobs for longer, but there were always issues. I had no diagnosis at this stage as this was in the seventies.

DONNA:
Yeah, been there. Though I was out of school at 15 in 1978 and I’d been assessed as psychotic at age 2 in 1965 and then labeled disturbed at school in the 70s… hardly something I’d say at an interview… “oh, nice to meet you, by the way I’ve been psychotic since I was 2 so I might have some special needs”…. errrr… don’t think so. Having a diagnosis of autism someone might employ me outside of the autism field, but unless it’s art it’s likely I’d be on $5 an hour if I was lucky. My teaching qualification matters to me, but my supervisors knew at the time I was going to use it to work with kids with autism 1-1 and that’s where its been my strength.

GERALDINE:
After I had children and did parent help at school, I realized that I had a natural ability to get through to children with learning and behaviour difficulties I decided to train as a teacher. Fortunately the campus close to home was very small so although there were difficulties, I coped.

Teacher training was a wonderful thing for me. I learned a great deal about communication, getting on with others and gained confidence. I nearly had to leave due to voice problems, but I taped myself reading children’s stories and worked on developing an expressive voice.

DONNA:
Yay, three cheers for you. That’s so inspiring. I used to detest my real voice so I used other people’s voices most of my life until I was about 26 then began to dare use my own but I detested the sound of it in my ears, it sounded so NUDE, so horrendously exposing, so overwhelmingly existant. Apparently there’s a term for that, Acoustophobia… though I love music…. gotta say I struggle with lots of types of voice, mostly scratchy or shrieky women’s ones. I rarely detest male voices unless they are whiny.

GERALDINE:
While I have never had a problem getting along with children, parents are often initially not able to relate to me. When they see their children happy, loved and learning, those barriers break down because their prime concern is the wellbeing of their children. I then develop excellent working relationships with most parents.

As far as staff are concerned, there were always really kind and caring people who appeared to see vulnerability and supported me. There are others who exploit naievity or openly dislike difference, so that part of teaching can be hard.

DONNA:
Oh yeah, this shocked me too. I couldn’t believe how cliquee and bitchy some of the student teachers on my course were. Only a few, but we have this idea that teachers are thoughtful, kind, accomodating types of people and they’re not always so. One of the most non-autism-friendly fellow students in my life was in the teaching course I took (which I wrote about in Somebody Somewhere).

GERALDINE:
Generally though, there are many people in schools, including ancilliary staff, who are willing to give anyone a fair go. Perhaps that is more obvious in Australia as part of the national psyche.

DONNA:
Yes, that’s really true, some of the staff in my teaching course and the teachers I trained under were fabulous. But I also think the tall poppy thing is also part of Aus culture and there are some who just live to cut people down. It’s quite a compensatory narcissistic thing to do.

GERALDINE:
When I was diagnosed and found out from literature that I lacked empathy I considered resigning. At the time I worked for a wonderful principal who reminded me that I had always been well thought of professionally and that I was still the same person. Another teacher pointed out to me that it was very important that children with disabilities have role models. She reminded me that the community in general should see that people with disabilities can determine their paths in life and can often work around their condition .

DONNA:
Goodness, that’s so moving. I’m so glad for you. That stereotype is so harmful. A lot of solitary people have deep empathy but are capable of equal detachment and can be highly anxious with intimacy, closeness or openly showing their feelings. And this is world’s apart from narcissists who struggle to empathise with people as their equals or psychopaths incapable of empathy. Sure, any population will have psychopaths in it, even ours, but the real issues is that when people don’t openly share their emotions comprehensibly, then unless they type out those feelings, they are often open to all manner of projections from those who live on stereotypes.

GERALDINE:
I have realised that I am not sure if I have empathy but I am able to logically deduce emotion and I have compassion.

DONNA:
There are many forms of empathy and some forms of ‘caring’ are controlling, pathologically co-dependent, promote learned helplessness or are so flag waving they are soul destroying to the person who is now the object/flag. So by contrast your cerebral empathy is doin’ just fine!

GERALDINE:
I work hard to do this and think my effort should be valued. Many people technically have the capacity to empathise but they definitely do not empathise with me. Perhaps a certain level of common experience is needed to be empathetic. That helped me to think about working with the information I had about Aspergers.

DONNA:
That’s so sad and exactly what I mean. Some non-autistic people don’t value having empathy themselves… its inconvenient, they are too busy, too fixated with their own lives to dare entanglements that don’t appear advantageous… its a competitive world for many of them… and ‘weirdos’ just ain’t at the front of their empathy queue. Then there’s others who empathise with all and sundry, they live it, breath it, live for it. It often comes down to personality traits and this is why some people with autism have natural emotional or physical empathy and for others its an equally valid cerebral version.

GERALDINE:
I now have found a niche doing what I enjoy, encourging people with different abilities and skilling other teachers to work with children who are different.

DONNA:
Yeah, same here. Although arts is really my ‘home’. I empathise so naturally through arts, but consulting work is also very rewarding. I really wish you all the best in this sort of work. I think anyone reading this will see how much your heart is in what you do and if they are looking for a consultant who has ASD, you would be a good place to start.

DONNA:
Professionals with ASD were once invisible but more and more of us are popping up.
Some of this was likely that autistic people were believed to be incapable of such achievements and Asperger’s was not yet a diagnosis.
But I’ve also heard there’s a double edged sword thing when you have ASD and are also a professional
in which disclosure can mean no work or discrimination yet disclosure can lead to being ridiculed for not being ‘autistic enough’ for a diagnosis.
What have you encountered about this?

GERALDINE:
When I first disclosed that I had Aspergers, I was terrified that people would disagree. I was stunned to find that they all said they knew there was something and totally agreed. At the time I was in a school that had a deaf unit so the culture of acceptance of difference was well established. I am so lucky to have had that experience because they helped me to come to terms with myself and my abilities and to accept that everyone needs support sometimes. I am not as hard on myself as I used to be.

DONNA:
That is so cool. When I told fellow students in my teaching course Asperger’s was not yet a diagnosis in society and the stereotype of autism was that of 90% of people with autism were thought severely mentally retarded so being an ‘untidy box’ perplexed a lot of people in that purist era. Today though, people understand its a spectrum and that there are people right across the spectrum from severely autistic to mildly Aspie and every place in between and also that people have moved along the spectrum over their lives.

GERALDINE:
I moved to an area where there was not a culture around accepting differences and that was hard. I was very much victimized by some people who did not want to work with someone with a disability listed in the DSM. Luckily there were enough people who were accepting to keep me going. Interestingly, the only people who have ever challenged my diagnosis are educational psychologists in the early stages of their careers. They soon learn more and change their minds.

DONNA:
I had no difficulty with Educational Psychologists and I’ve met many of the most well known ones in countries around the world. As soon as people get me on a topic beyond stored scripting my verbal skills really shift and my typing is way beyond my speech then. But I sure did have problems with some lay people in the early 90s when I was one of the first public cases of a really untidy box diagnosed with autism. Some of these lay people presumed that because they’d seen Rain Man that they knew ‘autism’. That was pretty tedious.
As a teacher with autism, what have been your most non-autism-friendly experiences in this profession?

GERALDINE:
There are many incidents relating to executive function. Teachers are meant to have wonderful organisation skills and I struggle with that. However, staff social functions outside of school are very hard. Firtly it is hard for me to accept that something that has nothing to do with the classroom or children is so important to workplace relationhips. I have an extreme difficulty with recognizing people I know in one situation when I meet them in another situation.

DONNA:
Aiaiaia, yes, face blindness, same thing here. A kid would leave the room and I completely forgot them and whilst I could learn kids names based on their shape, movement, voice, hair, if we went to a different context I was pretty stumped. But face blindness also helped because it makes me highly tuned into movement instead.

GERALDINE:
In addition, I am very confident in talking to people about my work. It is a great common topic. I have a sound knowledge about my field and so I can sustain conversation because I don’t have to concentrate on topic. Socially, I find it extremely difficult to make small talk. I often have no idea who the person is and sensory issues, social exhaustion and all the other things to do with autism click in. It upsets me that some people think I don’t like them because I can’t socialize with them. No matter how hard I try, it seems impossible to explain.

DONNA:
That’s tough. If you were blind and not face blind they wouldn’t take your blindness personally if you didn’t recognise them and behaved as if they were a stranger until you did. If you were unable to tell their feelings from their facial expression or body language because of blindness they wouldn’t take it personally, they’d tell you what they are expressing, but people don’t understand the same is true for people with a variety of visual perceptual processing issues. You know I’ll welcome you with a cuppa anytime, seriously.
Tell me about some of the most positive accomodations people have made and how they made you feel about those who made them and the wider world?

GERALDINE:
Conceptually I think of the way I structure my day as a building a house of cards. It looks great but if anyone nudges a card out of place or knocks one down, the whole ediface collapses.

Prior to diagnosis there was a senior staff member who realized that I reacted to change very negatively, so if she had to say, for example, that a specialist lesson was canceled that morning, I would respond in a very gruff way. She just naturally modified that by coming to me and saying she would need to see me in a few minutes because something had changed. She would then come back and inform me of the change. This was great because it gave me a chance to be ready to rearrange my house of cards, so there was no sense of collapse. It is the very small things that people do that make a big difference. I feel as if that is person I would do everything in my power to help too.

DONNA:
That is a great example. We should have an award to send to people like that.
Since infancy I was left with all and sundry… my mother was one of 9 siblings so there were plenty of people to leave me with.
This constant change and upheaval has made me very resilient and self reliant. I’m really glad. But I think it’s also my personality. I’m totally my own person, really love my autonomy… there are others who hate autonomy.
You, like me, are also a public speaker.
How did you feel about your first public talk?
How does this compare with today?

GERALDINE:
My first public talk was very personal – about my childhood and adolescence. I cried all through it because I was talking about experiences I prefer not to relive. I will never do that again because it took me weeks to get over it.

DONNA:
Oh, heck, but great you were brave enough to do that. Yeah, when I was first interviewed on personal stuff, my voice went to a peep, I faltered terribly and was really scared, my body shook like crazy, it was quaking, and it felt like a kind of rape to tell a stranger personal things. And I got strongly criticised by an ex lecturer of mine and some students he’d gathered (including the one from the teacher’s course) who said I couldn’t possibly be autistic because I’d been vocal and confident in my sociology classes (a topic I’d been taking for 4 years) and a class on children’s literature I’d been in for a year. That’s insane. But I’m glad I learned to talk on more than scripted well researched topics. At some point one has got to dare speak from a personal level, about personal things and after many years it did get easier which has helped me let people get close to me as a person too.

GERALDINE:
Public speaking is hard for me. I want so much to help people understand the core of autism, not what they see but what I feel and to know that my experiences can help them to understand others but are not a recipe for understanding others. I put an enormous pressure on myself and often am at breaking point when I start to talk. I am not a well known speaker, so I have to cope with the demands of travel after work and other difficulties on my own. The only time that I was supported in travelling and accommodated at the venue i.e. attention to needs such as low lighting, I gave the best talk. I connected with the audience in a way that I rarely connect with people individually and was able to relax and enjoy a conversation. I found that stimulating rather than exhausting.

DONNA:
Yes, lighting really matters. When its bright, it really fries my brain. I speak far better in dimmer light. Tinted lenses helped with that. As for being well known, I really love when REAL people do public speaking. There’s something so relateable in their presentations.
There’s a lot of public speaker’s these days who have ASD.
Seems we all speak on very different subjects, have different specialities and address different parts of the autism spectrum.
Tell me what sort of things you address in your presentations?

GERALDINE:
Generally I address education issues with a focus on the importance of promoting self esteem and supporting children towards independence, resilience and valuing autism as valid way to be a person. Sometimes I talk about adult issues as I would like people to understand that a diagnosis is a label that can liberate. I like to tell people about the importance of self knowledge and the pleasure of belonging to a distinct cultural group. I try to explain how characteristics which give me great difficulty can also be a source of immense strength. An example is that perseveration got me through university even though I had three children and no family support. I hope people understand that I have great joy in my life because of autism and that I would not want to be any other kind of person. I hope that parents and professionals can use that information to help children and young people find the same pleasure in life.

DONNA:
Some of the most well known people with ASD also have professional qualifications.
Yet there’s also this media and autie-culture thing about ‘famous autistics’.
Yet you are becoming progressively well known too.
How would you feel about yourself, your professionalism, your contributions to the autism world, if you became one of these ‘famous autistics’?

GERALDINE:
I think it is funny to think of me as famous. Actually I think fame is very strange. There are many people who deserve to be well known because of their achievements but there are people all over the world doing amazing things and nobody notices. There are also individuals who do nothing much and dominate headlines. I don’t really care about famous.

DONNA:
I don’t care about famous either but being self employed means one has to actually let oneself be visible, relatively accessible and occassionally fame is a byproduct of that and chance and timing of the universe. I think the important thing is to use fame to help others where one can. But equally there’s an enormous social pressure and time demand on those who are well known. It gets really claustrophobic and exposing at times. The public can make you into an object and can feel it can own you, push you, pull you any way it likes. But I have also had the honor of meeting really lovely real every day people too so that’s a plus as it restores faith in humankind.

GERALDINE:
Having said that, I recognize an anomaly in thinking because when I was first diagnosed, you well known autistic authors made a big difference to my life. Tony Lang’ s website, really helped me to feel positive. Tony is now a good friend, so I use the concept of fame to draw attention to positives about autism for other people. Regarding professionalism, my motivator is a powerful special interest in observing humans. Fortunately I get paid to explore my passion. I don’t really care about the peripheral thing like people knowing who I am but I like it if people acknowledge a job well done.

DONNA:
Many people with Asperger’s Syndrome describe themselves as ‘autistics’.
I have a language processing disorder and had dysfunctional speech until late childhood. Because of this I’m diagnosed with autism rather than Asperger’s.
Where do you feel that those with Asperger’s understand or can convey ‘autistic’ experience and where do you feel they would struggle to deeply understand or convey the experiences of those diagnosed with autism rather than ASD?

GERALDINE:
I consider myself far more like a person with profound autism than like someone who is profoundly neurotypical. My thinking is that when you consider the general population, we do not expect everyone to understand each other or relate to each other in every way, but there are some fundamental ways in which people are alike. A diagnosis of an ASD means that we share some of those characteristics but some are different. Initially, when I was first diagnosed, I did not undertand this but now, despite the similarities, I do not speak for other people. I start my talk making it clear that I am only an expert in myself.

I now use the term autistic for several reasons. One is that I do not distance myself from people classed as low functioning. I intensely dislike the discrimination I have seen when social groups are segregated with regard to high and low functioning.

DONNA:
That’s interesting, because the term ‘profound autism’ traditionally means ‘severe autism’ and I feel there are people far more severely effected by their conditions… be that severely autistic or severely non-autistic, than either of us. But I agree that the high/low functioning divide is mostly invalid as many with the semblance of one group have features in the other and some capable of great potential don’t push their limits to use it and some who reach that potential do so with the most Herculean efforts most would never imagine from seeing them function.

GERALDINE:
If we cannot have respect for each other, we cannot expect others to respect us. Also, functioning is a human construct and is situational. I can assure you that I have experienced “low functioning” although I acknowledge that I have no understanding of how that feels as a life experience. While I use the term autistic to describe myself now, I actually prefer the old term AC (Autistic Continuum) as a very inclusive term which does not blur the differences in personal experience. Autist seems fine too. If someone can come up with something better, I would welcome the use of that.

DONNA:
I see ‘autistic’ as an adjective, ‘autism’ as a condition, ‘autism spectrum’ as a category containing many conditions and those in that category not necessarily purely fitting the labels they have.
In my view there is no one thing called Autism or Asperger’s for that matter because in any room of either group many people will be rather autie-Aspie or Aspie-autie or just so varied in the expression of their Autism or Asperger’s.
Have you met a lot of people right across the autism spectrum including those without functional speech or typed communication?

GERALDINE:
Yes I have. It is harder to meet people who do not communicate verbally because for a variety of reasons they often do not spend time in the community. I really enjoyed meeting Lucy Blackman because I saw her as a great communicator in a very individual way and she certainly extends her personal boundaries with great aplomb.

DONNA:
I’ve met many functionally non-verbal people with and without typed speech because my work has often been via Social Services or in Special Schools.
How varied do you find those with ASD?

GERALDINE:
LOL Donna. That is a very open ended question. um.

After contemplation and reading the next question I can answer. The variation of people with autism is glorious. Its huge. There are intolerable difficulties for some people and I recognize that. We all face difficulties that for many people are beyond contemplation. Many families face totally unacceptable circumstances alone and without any meaningful support but I believe that with knowledge eg dietary supports, environmental awareness, improved understanding of learning and communication styles, that is changing and will change for the better.

DONNA:
Cool answer 🙂
And how do you feel that compares with the public’s often naive, if not ignorant view that ASD takes only a narrow range of forms or always plays out in exactly the same collection of behaviours in all manner of situations whether familiar or not?

GERALDINE:
Those beliefs imprison us.

DONNA:
Yay, Donna cheers from the back row.
You’re from Tasmania? Am I right?
Tell me about where you’re from.

GERALDINE:
I was born in South Africa. My family came to Tasmania when I was a child. In my early twenties I travelled widely trying to find a place where I fitted in. Lol. I came back to Tasmania because this is a quieter and more gentle place in many ways. I now live in an isolated community where there is a high level of autism. I enjoy the proximity to World Heritage forest and isolated beaches. I have found home although I also enjoyed working in Japan. They have very structured social systems but as a foreigner, I received lots of support when I trampled over local customs in contrast to receiving disapproval here.

DONNA:
I have been to Tasie a few times… it’s glorious, I love it, shame about the trams though… as in you don’t have any 😉
Tell me about Geraldine, the person, what makes you tick, what drives you nuts, what inspires you and what do you aspire to?

GERALDINE:
This is an intensely personal question, but I have seen similar thoughts from some other people with autism. I know a little girl who cut herself and commented that she had torn it. I understand that. Geraldine is a rather decrepit body and something else that I don’t really know about. Maybe that is “person”. Geraldine, the person, seems ephemeral. I don’t know her. There is a core within me that engenders fear. Donna’s writing can be extremely hard for me to read, because Donna has been to those places.

DONNA:
Now my darling, you just grabbed me by the heart. I feel seen. My journo face has slipped. Thank you for seeing me.

GERALDINE:
I remember reading about her recognition that she did not actually know the food she liked and it triggered terror in me because there is so much that I do and feel and say that has appeared but is not me. I guess Popeye sums it up.

“I yam what I yam, and that is all that I yam” but unlike Popeye, I don’t know what I yam. I just yam.

Maybe that is all that I can face. Dunno. Getting anxious. Finish.

DONNA:
If only you knew the millions of people who read Nobody Nowhere and wrote to say they found themselves in those pages. And they weren’t all autistic, they were the invisible people and the hiding people, they were those on the edge about to give up and those crushed by a society committed to facades who would never dare the guts you and I had to tell people such unhearable things. Sometimes the only thing to do IS to DO. And that is good enough. If one can also trully BE, then that is even better, for whatever 5 minutes of our day we get to truly stop just APPEARING. And if we appear and function, then for some of us, at least we might spread something good and watch it do something good in the world.

I understand you might be interested in further or different kinds of work.
Such as?

GERALDINE:
I have a dream. lol.

Seriously I have a dream. I dream that the government would like to provide services that autistic adults want. I dream that the government would like to sponsor me to travel all over Australia communicating (in the broadest sense of the word) with adults in cities and remote areas to find out what their dreams are and how Australians can include them as Autistics (not some kind of fake other), a distinct cultural group but also to be seen as part of mainstream society. I dream that someone would want me to travel to use that information to educate service providers and communities. The deaf community is achieving this and I think we can learn from them especially as some of us are also some of them.

DONNA:
Sounds GREAT. OK, how about some of the people who know those like me and Wendy Lawson, have a look at this gem that is Geraldine Robertson BEd, TTC who has really important insights specifically her own which neither Wendy nor I represent. She’s probably also plenty more affordable than we are! And I can vouch for her giving her heart and soul in any presentations and the professionalism of being a formally qualified and experienced teacher with hands on experience working with a wide range of people on the autism spectrum.

GERALDINE:
Other than that, I am very interested in all aspects of advocacy and am taking part in a CEDAW consultation for women with disabilities in Canberra at the end of this month. I would be a good advocate in the areas of education and employment because I understand these situations as an insider as well as an autistic. I am also very passionate about the individuals I work with and pernickity about detail. I am unrelenting in pursuit of social justice, so try me.

DONNA:
Great blurb, if I ever need a publicist…. 😉

GERALDINE:
I am also interested in a position where I could be employed to educate business, employment agencies, government departments, medical personel about autism. I like systems. I would enjoy setting up a professional Autism Advocacy system across Australia. I have great contacts. If there are any philanthopists out there who would like to set up a consortium of people with autism to educate and inform the community and support their peers, feel free to let me know.

DONNA:
WOW, you go girl!
If people would like to contact you or find out more about what you do, how can they do that?

GERALDINE:
Ah. That question follows on nicely, doesn’t it. Well planned, Donna.

DONNA:
ha ha, all them interviews journos taught me good, huh?
you know there’s a recent study says auties can grasp stereotypes.
Obviously I’ve got the journo one down, eh?

GERALDINE:
Also eep. How will I cope with an avalanche of millionaires who want to donate squillions of $$ to the Autism Advocacy cause?

DONNA:
Very cute, ya never know, someone in Perth may read this 😉 I hear its full of millionaires.

GERALDINE:
Auties.org is a good avenue for contacting me.
http://www.auties.org/auties/listings///30/edit//0/

DONNA:
Anything you’d like to add?

GERALDINE:
Yes. This was fun. Sorry I am so verbose. Your questions hit download. Thanks for asking me about my thoughts. Feel free to edit if they overwhelm your blog. lol.

DONNA:
Sorry is futile. I’m a practical woman, and verbose has made you a good interviewee and doubtless a good public speaker for those who will hire you throughout Australia.

From there, maybe get a free website at http://www.wordpress.com where you can post your testimonials so people can know how good your audiences have found your presentations. I also expect that as a qualified teacher with insider insights into ASD, Social Services may like to chat to you about helping people with autism within their services and certainly families can hire professionally qualified people with autism as affordable private autism consultants.

GERALDINE:
Warm is tricky in Tas at this time of year, but regards
Geraldine.

DONNA:
Warmly,

Donna Williams, Dip Ed, BA Hons
author, artist, composer, screenwriter
http://www.donnawilliams.net
http://www.auties.org