When a discussion isn’t a discussion : living with trolls .
In this internet age the word ‘friend’ has become progressively watered down. Today it can mean any acquaintance who adds themselves to your list. They may wish to be a friend and may be friendly, but friendship takes longer and not everyone has enough time to give to all. Then there are flamers who feign discussion but are actually so certain of their own virulent opinion that the questions they pose are purely rhetorical and no amount of answering will ever please them.
These are not merely people letting off steam. Some are well known for their hatred and support stalking and internet lynchings, often citing libelous misinformation containing blatant factual errors. Then there are trolls who post poorly researched controversial information in order to set out to bait people into responding. When the comments of trolls and flamers are deleted or they are blocked from posting, they often proclaim this as evidence of the righteousness of their behavior rather than facing that they were not discussing nor even open to discussion in the first place.
According to http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm the definition of a troll is:
To “troll” means to allure, to fish, to entice or to bait.
Internet trolls are people who fish for other people’s confidence and, once found, exploit it.
With flamers, trolls, stalkers and abusers, a discussion is not a discussion, and pretence of caring is not real caring at all.
here’s some indications of “playful trolls” (from http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll-tactics.html )
- a lack of buy-in to the list philosophy or values
- generally low level of activity, with sudden spurts of interaction – or perhaps a new persona that has strong opinions on controversial subjects
- a mixture of friendly posts with a confrontational style of interaction
- the use of provocative language and sweeping generalisations about certain topics or categories of people
- a lack of in-depth understanding of the topic
- a lack of personal information
- a lack of a genuinely unique perspective on the topic
- a lack of humour
- restarting topics that have already been done
- use of language that encourages the dialogue to enter topics that are controversial and likely to upset some team members
- the use of an attention-seeking gimmick (e.g.: “I was once exploited by an XYZ”)
- they follow up their own articles if the group doesn’t respond to their posts
- inconsistencies in the style and nature of the post and any proclaimed information (e.g.: claiming to be a child but writing with an adult style; claiming to be adult, but writing with a childish grammatical construction).
- also note that trolls often seem to use free email services (such as hotmail.com) or have email addresses ending in .edu. However, trolls could be virtually anyone, and the email address is no guide as to whether the persona is a bona fide user or not.
then there’s the next level, “tactical trolls” ( from : from http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll-tactics.html )
- They engage in off list email dialogues to gain the confidence and trust of influential individuals on the list.
- They are friendly and humorous in the posts, to put you at ease with their persona.
- They have a well-thought-through story such that the persona seems to be very real. They will give apparently personal and intimate information, particularly in off list emails.
- They win trust by giving trust. For example, they may hint at something confidential on-list, but then only reveal the full story to someone off-list. By bringing someone into their confidence, they create a feeling of confidence towards them by the individual’s concerned.
- In off list emails, they win allies and support for some of their views. Their offlist emails are subtly manipulative.
- They ‘set up’ bona fide members to argue with each other. Any view, no matter how outrageous, can be made to sound rational when put in a certain context. By setting different contexts for different people offlist, they create a setting whereby they can raise a topic on-list, in a seemingly innocent manner, and then watch the two list members argue because they have interpreted the topic/message in very different ways.
- In off-list emails, they use techniques borrowed from NLP and Speed-Seduction to make people have a great deal of affection for them. This naturally suppresses any suspicion there might be.
- They use gimmicks that win sympathy and bring out the ‘nurturing parent’ in other list members, which also suppresses any feelings of suspicion. E.g.: being blind, handicapped, an orphan, rejected, bullied etc..
- They build up a reasonable knowledge of the topic of the list. This enables them to take part for some time as apparently bona-fide list members.
- They use language that is carefully constructed to be subtly invidious. This language is designed to identify two or more separate groups of people, and encourage list members to identify the negative traits of those groups. This creates argument and dissent between list members. Note that subtlety is often their main objective, so this language is difficult to spot.
- They don’t enter into the argument directly, but facilitate an argument between list members, e.g.: by highlighting points that one list member has made, perhaps in a way that is more confrontational than the original intention.
- They sometimes create a fictitious persona supported by a web-site, photographs and apparently personal data.
- They may suggest meeting up in real-life, but the meeting doesn’t take place.
These people may escalate to “strategic trolls” (from : http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll-tactics.html )
- They have various phases to their strategy, where each phase aims to achieve different things.
- The first phase usually involves establishing multiple personalities who become recognised as integral members of the group – “friendly trolls”. Don’t be deceived by the title – they appear to be friendly but they have very different hidden motives. Establishing friendly trolls in a group is a process that can take many months or even years.
- The second phase involves using new personalities to start divisive threads, in the manner outlined under “Tactical Trolls”. In the event that no list members respond to these threads, other phase two trolls will respond to them to keep the debate active.
- If existing list members have not yet joined in the arguments, the third phase involves “offensive trolls” attacking their own personae from the first phase. As these trolls will have built up a lot of goodwill in the group, other list members will jump to their defence, and they are therefore drawn in to the argument.
- In case other list members don’t join in, “defensive trolls” may join in and continue to give air time to the “offensive trolls”. The friendly trolls can also incite bona fide list members to join in using offlist emails.
- Another phase may involve the friendly trolls starting to retaliate publicly, calling on the support of bona fide list members.
- When things start to get out of hand, petrol will be poured on the flames to try and stir things up as much as possible and cause the maximum amount of strife and chaos.
Finally, the most demented of trolls is the “domination troll” who will usually make themselves list managers, to widen their audience and get the greatest satisfaction from their harm/vengeance (from http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll-tactics.html )
- gratification from dominating the emotional lives of list members
- gangland ware – where one group sets up a list and aims to defend it from other trolling groups
- a genuine area of interest on behalf of the troll
Sometimes especially women with ASD are especially vulnerable to those in powerful positions who have decision making power over their lives and I have sadly heard of people being sexually abused and harassed by employers, lecturers, supervisors only to have to put up with this or lose their job, their course, their future. Perhaps its no wonder that only 6% of people with ASD have employment.
Abusers in power may claim to be helpful, caring or a friend only to gain private time with them, entrap them, toy with their responses, abuse them and, if afraid their behaviour may be disclosed, some may then even seek to hide the abuse by publicly demeaning their victims. In the internet age such abuse can then (even unwittingly) be perpetuated by others who were never party to the origins of the abusive relationship and take the abusers proclamations at face value.
The autism world is full of flamers and trolls from both sides of autism politics. Militants on both sides may be closed to real discussion and far more interested in their vitriolic conspiracies.
As a moderate I understand the passion of both sides. As someone assessed as a psychotic infant, a disturbed child and diagnosed as an autistic adult, I have been the physically ill self injurious child who can’t learn from being told or shown and behaves as if the household is a war zone. And as an autism consultant I have seen violent, self injurious children with autism and their battered parents and terrified siblings.
I have also met those who have grown up with developmental differences and been bullied for years and socially excluded for these and these people deserve understanding and self esteem too and if seeing themselves as part of a culture gives them that, then as long as they are clear they are people, not labels, why should it matter.
Autism is a spectrum and in that spectrum are severely ill, highly challenged people and others with significant challenges for whom the condition is more cultural than physical and all manner of people in between. Sometimes people progress, with treatment, from one end to the other. That progression may be slow and limited or dynamic and profound and others simply grow up to be bigger versions of what they were at age 3. With all the preciousness and autism circus rubbish going, its not surprising camps polarise and defend their labels and theories but when we lose humanity and learning in the process its time to chill out, stand back and get off our high horses.
If an adult can’t express themselves in public arenas without flaming people, they may be best to come back when they have learned to practice some impulse control. Those who can’t tell the difference between controversy and research, media melodrama and fact, flaming and discussion, trolling and caring, stalking and interest may need to consider their confusion between passion for their cause and reckless damage.
Here’s sound advice on how to manage trolls… I try where possible to stick with this ( from http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll-tactics.html )
- ignore postings that you suspect may be from trolls.
- don’t invest any of your self emotionally until you have verified beyond all doubt that the person you are dealing with is genuine
- beware of off list emails that praise and flatter, or seem to evoke sympathy. If you feel yourself beginning to like someone, ask first: how much verifiable data do I have about them?
- if you do get involved in anyone, seek out verifiable data. Trolls will provide some data that will lead to dead ends; real people will provide some data that is open-ended and leads to a myriad of sources which enable you to verify their genuine status
- if you must respond to a troll posting, don’t get involved in the argument; limit it to pointing out that the posting may be considered as trollish, for the benefit of other list members.
- Write to the listmaster to highlight what is happening
- Write to the postmaster of the troll’s domain. Keep it simple, polite and to the point (they are very busy!). Include your evidence (e.g.: offensive emails) and the full email header information, so that the troll can be properly traced.
- Listmasters can also make their lists restricted, and conduct a security analysis of each list application before allowing them to subscribe. This is probably easier to do in areas that have professional associations or qualifications.
… Donna Williams
Not much I could add after that Donna, cept it’s no wonder Autie’s & Aspie’s grow up socially awkward, socially indifferent or just socially ill prepared for the ‘normal’ world.
I’m not ashamed of my label and I’m not sure why one should be. Because the world sees the label first, not to take the power of “the label” away from the abuser is an acquiesence to their definition of the “label”. Many minority communities have learned that they need to take away the power that the label gives the abuser (i.e. “I’m queer, I’m here, get use to it”). While this may not appeal to a moderate, its the radical that “breaks” ground for the moderate. Without the radical, the moderate cannot bridge the gap. There should be room for both in a social justice cause. There are very few examples that I can think of when a radical wasn’t at the forefront of social change.
CS
One other note, what do you mean by “preciousness”?
I’m not a radical or a curirst or a moderate. I am what I am, my views are what they are, regardless of whether they’re traditonally put in which section by others.
Donna, I’ve noticed that many with autism or Aspergers are profoundly self-centered, arrogant, pompous, and have a delusional conception of self worth.
Interestingly, there are culturalists with ASD who proclaim all these features of non-autistic people. Personally, I think there are narcissists in any population, non-autistic and those with ASD, and there are non-narcissistic individuals with and without ASD. Fact is those who are narcissistic AND have ASD are more likely to throw tantrums, abuse others, rant at people, blame all but themselves, stalk, flame and troll than those with ASD who are not narcissistic. Those without ASD who are narcissists perhaps have some better social skills to hide their narcissism behind. Interestingly, recently there have been some books distinguishing narcissistic personality disorder in those with ASD from ASD itself. Of course as NPD is simply an exaggerated form of the self-confident personality trait, clearly someone with or without ASD could develop narcissistic personality disorder. I think if you’ve noticed that many with ASD have narcissism, then you are likely only encountering them in certain social arenas.
I’ve been an autism consultant for 12 years, working with over 600 people on the spectrum, mostly kids and often those most severely challenged. Most of my clients could never be described as arrogant, pompous or having a delusional concept of self worth. Most, however could be described as profoundly self oriented. If you understand that most struggle to process any consistent simultaneous sense of self and other, then you would understand self oriented has nothing to do with self centred, but without simultaneous processing of sense of other, it can be very hard to develop skills based on a simultaneous sense of self and other.
I’m sorry you’ve had such a bad impression of people with ASD. Unfortunately, I experienced many exploitative people without ASD who fitted the same description you gave. Fortunately, I met enough lovely people without ASD to know that these features did not have a necessary connection to a lack of ASD.
… Donna Williams *)
http://www.donnawilliams.net
“simultaneous sense of self and other”
you’ve mentioned this often. it’s quite a scientific notion and of a complexity that raises curiosity as to what you fully mean. as someone, also, with ASD, i’d like to ask for a thorough description and explanation of what you mean. i’ve found brief statements here and there.
i see you’re well able to write very clearly and in a well organized way, and give a lot of detail — many of your posts/comments are 1-2 pages long and are high quality discussion. could you do the same for the above idea? thanks.
Yes, I had a massive repertoire of songs, advertisements, jingles, even whole TV shows until I was about 9-11. Then I came to use the one word-one meaning language system… if you like stopped being a tape recorder and started having a mind. I began to type letter strings at age 9. The concept of typing or speaking from self was largely absent. I was simply too feral. Without simultaneous processing of self and other there was little cohesive concept of ‘talk to WHO’. All my speak was self speak. So through typing I moved from letter strings to lists and then into poetry and in time came to share selfhood through typing by my the time I was a teen. But in speaking, I gained semantics by age 11-13, but pragmatics evaded me till much later. This was largely due to no simultaneous sense of self and other… how does one learn how to socially use language when one can only process all self-no other or switch to all other-no self…
But by adulthood I could feign it, copying people the same as if they were TV series. And by age 30 (after 2000mg Glutamine for 30 days on top of all the other interventions – see my books, perhaps especially Everyday Heaven, for details) I finally got simultaneous self and other for 45 mins, enough to really grasp what others experienced. Then I understood so many things about their motivations to interact, especially through language. Its one thing to study it, another to experience it. Then I realised as an autism consultant that most Aspies lose consistent processing of simultaneous self and other, but most at the autistic end of ASD may be lucky if they ever gain it for 45 min in order to know what non-autistic people experience.
Trying to explain this to Aspies is hard because they get enough of it to know they keep losing it, but have never known a whole childhood without it, where its not even a concept because perceptually, cognitively, its never been held more than a few seconds at a time. See once one knows what it is to process a simultaneous sense of self and other, there’s a whole realisation that comes with that. I can’t hold it and anyone hanging out with me can see it constantly go off like a flattened battery (except the non-autistic power monging screwballs who love it because it makes me easier to sleeze on and exploit… and I’ve known enough of them). Anyway, in typing, there’s far less drain on that battery than speaking, essentially in typing there is only the topic, self AND other go offline and one is on auto and nobody cares if one is typing preconsciously with no conscious awareness of the process or feeling… so its where I feel free and whole… also in arts.
I also relate to Dostoevsky Syndrome, which is about compulsive ARTism. Apparently its a temporal lobe issue, who knows, who cares, I don’t.
ps: ALL people have had lack of simultaneous self and other… look at drunkenness, people who are stoned, people with the flu.. just most have never known what it is to be born that way, unable to know any different, many of whom may never do so, but most of whom CAN be helped to function REGARDLESS of lacking it. (see Autism and Sensing; The Unlost Instinct on that one)
🙂 Donna Williams *)
Here is a post which exemplifies trolling.
Trolling is when someone uses a posting to BAIT the recipient.
They will usually use inflammatory remarks and are always assured of their own point of view.
Rather than giving this troll/flamer and open door to my blog by directly approving their posting (this one is rather tamer than they way they speak of me elsewhere, probably in order to try and get me to post it so they’ll get an open door entry) I’m posting it myself. I HAVE in fact replied to their inflammatory remarks in the past, but they have generally deleted my comments then claimed I’m too gutless to respond.
Nevertheless, here’s their comment:
From reading about you, discussing you with others, your writing, etc, you seem to have Aspergers rather than autism, and likely always did. The language delay you had, and other aspects you describe (behavior, etc) (1) could be non-autistic problems, though when combined with Aspergers are quite intense, (2) many fully normal adults did not talk to 2 or 3 years old, this alone is not a criterion for autism, (3) your improvements (communication), etc, indicate you had underlying Aspergers and not autism, (4) autism by nature entails formal and largely fixed deficiencies, yes improvement can be made, but the core deficits remain, (5) if the diagnosis of autism is due to many factors and the lack of verbal language, and, later there is the acquisition of language, this most likely means that there was never autism, but rather Aspergers.
Same seems to be the case with Temple Grandin.
There is a clear difference between autism and Aspergers. It’s not accurate to use them interchangeably, or focus on using ‘autism’ alone when one has Aspergers.
I tend to think that some have financially banked on the use of autism as a diagnosis, to spark interest in themselves, do and promote books, make a living in the autism community.
I notice Donna that you often delete or never add posts like these … posts that raise simple objections or criticisms to things about you seem to get deleted right away. Why is this?
And now here’s my response to this troll’s flaming.
TROLL:
From reading about you, discussing you with others, your writing, etc, you seem to have Aspergers rather than autism, and likely always did.
DONNA:
The only people qualified to decide if I have/had autism rather than Asperger’s is a formally qualified educational/developmental PSYCHOLOGIST with long term experience of people with ASD who has personally spent extensive testing time with me. My assessement as psychotic at age 2 in 1965 at St Elmo’s private hospital, Brunswick, Victoria happened due to severe enough immune dysfunction issues to query Leukemia on admission, severe enough receptive processing issues to query deafness and severe enough self injury to come out instead as a 2 year old assessed as psychotic. To be then labelled as disturbed throughout childhood all the way to age 12 indicates that whatever issues where severely present at age 2 were still present to a marked degree till age 12.
TROLL:
The language delay you had, and other aspects you describe (behavior, etc) (1) could be non-autistic problems, though when combined with Aspergers are quite intense,
DONNA:
I have no doubt that combined with a marked receptive language processing disorder, a marked visual perceptual processing disorder, gut/immune/metabolic disorders and nutrient deficiencies (all formally diagnosed) that I also had severe co-morbid anxiety, mood and compulsive disorders (all now managed through diet, biomed and small amount of medication), that I ALSO had PTSD and probably RAD as a result of abuse and neglect from early infancy. I am also clear that children with ASD can have parents on the spectrum with extreme challenges themselves. In any case, there are photos as young as 3 mths old which show signs of PDD. I responded AUTISTICALLY to my challenges. There are other relatives formally diagnosed with ASD (including autism) on both sides of my father’s family. Labels are only labels. It may be that MANY children with autism are merely children with Asperger’s who have so many SEVERE additional health and other burdens that their level of functioning is diminished until at least late childhood.
TROLL
(2) many fully normal adults did not talk to 2 or 3 years old, this alone is not a criterion for autism,
DONNA:
I couldn’t agree more! I had speech from 18 mths of age. This consisted of an echolalic 2 hrs of my grandparents conversation in their own voices which, in 1964 when the film Children of The Damned was out, had my mother convinced I was possessed.
By age 5 I had a massive repertoire of songs, jingles, advertisments and by age 9 whole TV shows. I developed functional communication at age 9-11 (after biomed – C, Zinc, multivitamin-minerals in 1973). I fitted the criteria for Semantic-Pragmatic Language Disorder. My language history is not like those with Asperger’s but given I went on to develop reasonable functional communication probably today fit HFA. In late childhood I’d have been in the moderate range. In infancy in the severe-moderate range. Not all journies on the spectrum are the same. But as a consultant who has worked with many on the spectrum I’ve had the pleasure to work with children who have made similar transitions. Some make big ones, others small ones.
TROLL
(3) your improvements (communication), etc, indicate you had underlying Aspergers and not autism,
DONNA:
My improvements indicated that biomed, gestural signing, the use of communication via objects and an indirectly confrontational approach to reduce crippling social anxiety allowed me to move into functional communication by late childhood. My progressive improvement related to things like typing, RDI style learning programs, cranio scaral therapy, Mc Timoney chiropractic, tinted lenses, diet (GF/CF, low salicylate, low phenol and low sugar and necessity to avoid constant threat of institutionalisation.
TROLL:
(4) autism by nature entails formal and largely fixed deficiencies, yes improvement can be made, but the core deficits remain,
DONNA:
Couldn’t agree more.
TROLL
(5) if the diagnosis of autism is due to many factors and the lack of verbal language, and, later there is the acquisition of language, this most likely means that there was never autism, but rather Aspergers.
DONNA:
This shows naivete of the vast sources of being functionally non-verbal.
Some people with autism have Selective Mutism and when put on antidepressants begin to speak (I saw this for myself with several non-verbal autistic children). I experienced some of this myself at age 11 after developing functional communication, and with it some awareness, and as a result becoming highly anxious about my speech (I would stop speaking for days, weeks and a few times for months).
Some have severe oral dyspraxia and when given typed communication, excel. I have never had oral dyspraxia though Temple Grandin describes her speech impediments this way at age 2 before speech therapy.
Some, like me, have Semantic Pragmatic Disorder and a PERCENTAGE in this group develop functional communication, though a significant percentage remain limited to echolalia or rote learned word strings and others have combinations of the two (as do I went tired).
There are others so severely effected by gut/immune/metabolic disorders that until these are treated their are brain starved, often have significant brain toxicity, to the degree they can’t process enough, orient enough, self manage enough or process enough simultaneous sense of self and other to get to the next step of communication. To a degree (as someone treated for 2 primary immune deficiencies, vit B12 and magnesium deficiencies, severe reactive hypoglycemia, gluten intollerance, severe dairy allergy, salicylate and phenol intolerance, multiple food and chemical allergies (including allergy to fluoride) and 5 times the high level of inflamatory cytokines – all formally diagnosed) I have also been in this last group but am fortunate enough to have had treatment and regime that keeps me out of that group.
TROLL:
Same seems to be the case with Temple Grandin.
DONNA:
Temple is Temple. She was assessed as brain damaged at age 2 at which time she had speech impediments (could say ‘bah’ but not ‘ball’), smeared feces (as do some non-autistic toddlers), screamed and tantrumed (as do many toddlers) and by 3 and a half had speech. Her mother identified Temple as autistic in childhood from a DSM checklist. As an adult she was dx’d with Aspergers. Its hard to know if she was a difficult child with oral dyspraxia who had Asperger’s. No person who is not formally qualified as an educational/developmental psychologist with extensive experience with ASD and spending significant testing time with Temple could be qualified to decide where she is on the spectrum.
TROLL:
There is a clear difference between autism and Aspergers. It’s not accurate to use them interchangeably, or focus on using ‘autism’ alone when one has Aspergers.
DONNA:
Yes, I tend to agree. But there is far more variation than autism or Aspergers. There is PDD Nos. Semantic Pragmatic Disorder. And one may have any of these ASDs AND have co-morbid mood, anxiety, compulsive disorders, attention deficits, dyspraxias, gut/immune/metabolic disorders, sensory perceptual disorders, inability to process simultaneous sense of self and other and any number of environmental additions such as learned dependancy, RAD, PTSD or a severely co-dependent environment any of which could exacerbate personality traits into disorder proportions. And with enough FRUIT SALAD someone with and ASD will FUNCTION as autistic. With less FRUIT SALAD, those same people will appear more clearly PDD Nos, Aspergers, Semantic Pragmatic Language Disorder etc…. and then the question is IS THERE REALLY ANY ONE THING THAT IS autism? As a consultant I’ve met SO MANY kids dx’d as severely autistic who moved to the moderate range once their stuff was addressed and some adults who started in the severely autistic range now very non-autistic that its possible one daythat severely autistic may just mean ‘developmentally delayed with significant multiple burdens as to function autistically’.
TROLL:
I tend to think that some have financially banked on the use of autism as a diagnosis, to spark interest in themselves, do and promote books, make a living in the autism community.
DONNA:
I think one must look at what else someone with autism does. If all they do is present on or write about autism, the question is really IS IT USEFUL to anyone. My four text books are used as training texts for psychologists and teachers and the strategies outlined in them have proven effective for many kids who don’t respond to the one size fits all approaches who charge up to $50,000 a year off each autistic person in a family.
I’m also as much an artist, composer, sculptor, screenwriter as I am an autism consultant, public speaker, author. And Temple is an engineer. So just because someone continues to contribute what they can to the autism field or allow the word to be associated with them, this isn’t the same as being out there for the sake of money spinning. But, yeah, its a very good point and the public needs to keep that in mind. I dislike when ANY so called expert reduces the expertise of parents by discarding parental experience or intimidating people with high charges till the lose faith in their own expertise. I also dislike when any person with autism proclaims they represent any whole group as the diversity of fruit salads is so vast.
TROLL:
I notice Donna that you often delete or never add posts like these … posts that raise simple objections or criticisms to things about you seem to get deleted right away. Why is this?
DONNA:
to approve postings by a troll directly gives them an open door to flame. I have sensible people around me who have helped me understand and protect me from such people. When I’ve responded to trolls, they have deleted my comments and claimed I’m too afraid to respond. They have claimed that my choice to not waste my time, passion and money on libel cases is proof of their own truths. They utilise those not qualified for the opinions they give, including those who have a published history of using and abusing the person they are discrediting. It’s also a good thing to leave trolls and flamers to play alone. If nothing else, its all PR and those interested in more than conspiracies will look further and find their own truths. Not everyone has a tabloid style brain.
As a Taoist I have thanked the challenges in my life. Some of my greatest strengths came from the darknesses of others. They made me stronger, forced me to be as grounded as possible, to be resilient and a good self advocate.
Donna, this troll is not worth engaging with. I can see he is trying to upset your equalibrium. You are a calm, spiritual , and very empathetic and understanding woman.It shines through in your art!
It is sad that there are people out there who ‘hate autism’ with a passion.
They could learn a lot from you and your experience’s.
I shake my head, I truly do!
I hope that you can ignore these ungracious and mean comments.
They are so unjustified and unwarranted!
All the best to you Donna.
Keep up the good fight!
A comment from AUTISM DIVA (only posted here by Donna, the comment is NOT by Donna)
Author : Divaautie (IP: 69.3.70.250 , h-69-3-70-250.sttnwaho.dynamic.covad.net)
E-mail : divaautie@comcast.net
AUTISM DIVA said:
Hm, look at the very article above. Far from calm, far from understanding. You were quite irate, relativistic, sort of on a tirade in this article, lodging tons of harsh allegations, lodging tons of harsh complaints, characterizing the others you talk about in very negative hostile ways. On and on.
Biased supporters aren’t that valuable to the truth. But very valuable to one’s emotions. There is much in the world beyond emotions.
I enjoy reading your balanced and informative commentary.Whilst Autism Diva may feel that I am biased, I have to disagree. I say what I feel and think. It comes from the heart.And yes ,I am an emotional person. Very effusive, and passionate.But never malicious or nasty. Life is too short! (take after my Italian Father) But, yes, there IS much in the world beyond emotions.
Hi Kathy,
the comment you refer to was NOT by me at all
it was POSTED by me
but it is by a critic named AUTISM DIVA
Sometimes I won’t approve a comment directly if its from someone I suspect may then flood the blog. So, instead, to give them the chance to have an initial say, I post their comment myself.
So AUTISM DIVA quoted you, then seemed to wish to challenge your impression of me.
I don’t see the point of this, I’m not running a popularity contest on this blog, just my version of journalism. But she clearly disliked things I said, and so be it.
For the record, she’s one of the most high profile bloggers in the Neurodiversity (ND) crowd.
For now, she’s decided she doesn’t like what I write.
As you know, I’m a moderate. That means I’m not into militant agendas, not curist ones, not culturalist ones, though I can find merits in each.
Sometimes those at one extreme or the other feel like George Bush ‘you’re either with us or you’re against us’. If one is clearly ‘on the team’ then one must buy the rules, play the game the whole way.
As you know, I’m too feral for that.
So, yes, your fluffy emotional nature is safe with, and respected by me.
Sorry you were confused.
🙂 Donna *)
Thanks for clearing that up Donna.
Yes, I know of Autism Diva,I have read her blog from time to time. Have to say though, that I am very disappointed in the belligerent manner in which she is conducting herself.
I could also say that biased detractors aren’t that valuable to the truth, either.
“With all the preciousness and autism circus rubbish going on, it’s not surprising camps polarise and defend their labels and theories but when we lose humanity and learning in the process it’s time to chill out, stand back and get of our high horses.”
So true Donna.
When even a moderate such as yourself is pilloried I can only (sadly )shake my head.
Actually, it was not posted by Autism Diva. I didn’t recognize that as being any IP address I’d ever seen her use. I emailed her to ask her if she wrote it, and she said she didn’t, and had never heard of the divaautie email address either (that was what raised my suspicions, because when she comments on my blog she does not use that email address).
There have been a number of trolls who have been attempting to start fights by using the names or Internet nicknames of their opponents. I’ve had this happen to me recently a few different times, and so has at least one scientist in the autism field. It appears to be happening to Autism Diva as well. So everyone, Donna did not write that comment, but neither did Autism Diva. Someone is trying to mess with all our heads here.
Hi Donna,
I have the Autism Diva blog. That comment was not from me. Not that you would know it, but the style of writing and word usage is not like mine, either. The person used a couple words that I don’t ever use and wouldn’t because they sound wrong to me, for instance.
“There is much in the world beyond emotions” (weird stuff) I guess someone in Seattle hates me. Oh well.
Feel free to ask me any time if I have posted something.
Amanda, thanks so much for that.
I did try and write directly to that email address for Autism Diva and it bounced.
Good catch
Yes, I agree, the trolls are doing their ‘thang’
Ask Autism Diva for me if she’d like me to delete the postings on this blog relating to the troll who has feigned being her.
yes, its all pretty infantile, but that’s trolls for ya.
Thanks Diva, glad to see WE at least don’t hate each other.
I think we should leave hate to the trolls who have honed and excelled in it.
I don’t mind playing in the mud but I won’t play in the compost 🙂
… Donna *)
Hi Ms Clark, relieved to see that your name has been cleared. I did feel that it was a rather unusual belligerent post. Something I had never encountered before when reading your blog.
You are certainly right Amanda, SOMEONE IS trying to mess with all our heads!
Why are there such mischief makers out there?
There is enough trouble and strife in the world as it is! Sigh….
compost, donna? I might have said poo instead……..that’s what trolling and flaming is……..really………….
Athena is a moderate…………….not wanting to fight but also doesn’t recognize trolling………….
I’m decidedly more militant but…………BUT………..I hate flame wars………I’ve bitten or smacked my hands many times before……….because of desire to post something inflammatory against someone because “I feel attacked” or something like that……………
its hard to do at times but its better for everyone involved in the long run…….plus, it makes the troll look foolish………if he or she keeps ranting and no one responds……….
that in itself is victory………..
Ivan and Athena
Donna!
!!!
The name “Trista Jones” is very similar to the name “Tristan Jones”, and he’s an Alpha social club member. I don’t know whether you’ve met him yet, but he’s scheduled to come bowling.
Whoever’s doing this has done his research. VERY well.
Personally, I think that where this all went wrong was when you replied to the “I’d like to ask for a thorough description and explanation of what you mean” comment.with three very detailed comments.
Someone “like” foresam was trying to get you to EXPEND EFFORT in replying to him. That’s yet ANOTHER tool of people like “this”.
John.
Dear Donna, Friends, and other aspies like myself,
I wanted to contact others like myself; not for gaining sympathy. I hope to be an encouragement to others; and hoping people who read can encourage them too.
Wednesday night 1/2/2008 at the Meadowlark I took a brave step.
My turn came to come on stage. At the house piano; I said, I will sing a song by the late Sammy Davis Junior. For most of my life I knew I was somewhat different; in fact I wish I knew what the heck it was years earlier. For much I have coped and handled it well. Recent circumstances forced me to come to terms with it. Please don’t mistake disability with inability. I have a condition called aspergers syndrome; which is a mild form of autism. Yes, I am an autie, an aspie, and I am not ashamed of it anymore. This is where I got the compassion to become the healthcare for ALL Music guru. Ultimate, I’ve Got To Be Me, my strengths, my weaknesses, and things I wish could be different. song, “I’ve Got To Be Me.”
I have also written a song about autism. There may be attempts to get on YouTube so when someone researches tubes on Autism and/or Asperger. I would like to see both my new song go on and a video go on of the song I’ve Got To Be Me, with the Asperger presentation mentioned above. Legal of course; singing cover tune legally and paying the royalties to proper source.
So Long Friends, contact welcome healthmusic@winstream.net.
Yes, I am an aspie, an autie, and I am not ashamed of it anymore. Hardships caused by it (such as being socially outcasted in school days) is where I’ve got the incredible compassion to become the Healthcare for ALL Music Guru.
John, also known as Hai (sounds like high)
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